Audacious Marketing to Stand Out in an AI World with Mark Schaefer

Mark Schaefer [00:00:00]:
We know word-of-mouth marketing is the most trusted, most unadulterated form of marketing, the best advertising you could ever have. And yet, Lee, how many companies have you worked with that have a line item in their budget for word-of-mouth marketing? None. It’s almost completely ignored, and yet that is something AI cannot touch.

Announcer [00:00:23]:
Influential and thought provoking minds in marketing, sales, and business. The business of marketing podcast.

A. Lee Judge [00:00:32]:
Welcome again to the business of marketing. I’m a Lee Judge. You know, marketers, we could be boring. And the bigger the company we work for, the more likely that our marketing is boring. Admittedly, there are risks for pushing limits, but how else do we get our marketing to stand out if we don’t? Well, you’re about to get some guidance on that because today’s guest is not only a seasoned marketer, but also a multi best selling author on marketing topics, including his new book that we’ll get into today. So joining me is Mark Schafer. Hey, Mark.

Mark Schaefer [00:01:04]:
Hey, Lee. Thanks for having me.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:07]:
Good to have you on again. Again, this is your third time, so if this was SNL, you’d have a jacket by now.

Mark Schaefer [00:01:13]:
Alright. Well, I’ll be watching the mail.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:15]:
Alright. Let’s get into it, Mark. As I mentioned earlier, many marketers like to play it safe. So with fears like job security, overspending their budgets, or campaign fails, marketers wanna take the safe bet. So what do you say to the marketer who wants to push the limit but has these fears?

Mark Schaefer [00:01:33]:
Yeah. Well, you know, sometimes there’s a good reason to be boring if there’s legal constraints, let’s say, in the pharmaceutical industry, maybe in the wealth management industry. So, you know, I say, listen to the lawyers. Don’t go to jail. But most of the time, that’s not the case. Most of the time, boring has been normalized in an industry. And it’s like since I wrote the book, I I I’m kinda like looking at marketing in a whole new way. If you think about, like, car commercials, they’re all A the same or, you know, anything that’s promoting, wine or or or my favorite example recently is pizza.

Mark Schaefer [00:02:21]:
I mean, pizza is supposed to be fun and A with young people. And I think the most creative thing we have in in pizza is, like, nobody out pizzas the hut. What does that even mean? So I I think that that that Lee just we start to get into a rut where we just do things the same way. We do things because we’re comfortable. We do things because we love working with an advertising agency that we have worked with for years and years. We don’t really wanna rock the boat. And yet if we’re if we’re competent, we’re ignorable. If we’re competent, you know, we’re we’re we’re we’re really vulnerable because that’s the theme of of of the book that that AI is competent.

Mark Schaefer [00:03:09]:
And if you’re just working at a competent level, you’re vulnerable because AI can take your job. I mean, AI is more than competent today.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:18]:
Yeah. It is. In fact, you so you mentioned your book. So I wanna get into the book and and and AI. So first with the book, you push marketers to consider doing some things out of the box and being more than competent. So give us an example from the book that a marketer could easily see themselves immediately putting into action.

Mark Schaefer [00:03:35]:
Well, what I did is I I started to explore some of these marketing ideas and campaigns that really cut through the noise. That’s what we want. Right? Yeah. Everyone listening to A show wants to be seen, wants to be heard, wants to be discovered. And what I found is that these case studies fell into one of three A. And that’s really the format we need to be exploring. So what is marketing? It’s it’s telling your story. So if you disrupt the story, if you disrupt where the story is told or disrupt who is telling the story, then we have an opportunity to start to stand out and be A, to be, you know, audacious in some way.

Mark Schaefer [00:04:24]:
So let me give you, you know, a quick example of of each one. So disrupt and and by the way, you you don’t need big budgets. There’s a lot of like bombastic examples in the book, but there’s also a lot of little ones. I tried to, give lots of case studies that cover, you know, small businesses, entrepreneurs, nonprofits, universities. So let’s talk about telling a story in a new place. There’s a company called Litographs. What they’ll do for book lovers is they’ll print all the words of a book on a t shirt or a blanket or something like that. So they had this promotion where they created a temporary tattoo for every sentence of a famous book Lee Alice in Wonderland.

Mark Schaefer [00:05:12]:
So they sent out these tattoos to all their fans. They put them on a body part, took a picture of the body part, sent it back to the company. You can read the whole book on body parts. A that’s, you know, A a story, you know, in a different place. But there’s, Lee I said, lots of examples. Let’s talk about disrupting the actual narrative. And one of the things I talk about here is is breaking taboos, breaking norms. We live by so many rules in marketing, and some of them are good.

Mark Schaefer [00:05:46]:
But sometimes Lee need to, we need to push the edges. We need to explore new ways, to to to tell our story. A, so in A in the book, I’ve got, you know, lots of examples of telling stories in new ways. And one of my favorite examples is, e. L. F, the cosmetic company. Now here’s a company that A, appeals to young women with their relatively inexpensive cosmetics. And and one of the things they do I mean, they’re completely disrupting the whole marketing landscape.

Mark Schaefer [00:06:26]:
They’re a fascinating company to look at. And they basically said, we have no personas. We we we just look at the market day to day to day. Every day Lee wake A, it’s like a new marketing day because they’re leaning into the signals. Where are our customers now? And how do we tell the story in a new way? And one example is last year, actually, it’s 2023, they created a music video. And this music video, became the number one, video on on YouTube. Right? They created a A a shop on Roblox. Now if you think about where do you expect a cosmetic company? How how do you expect a cosmetic company to tell their story? Right? Nobody’s on roadblocks.

Mark Schaefer [00:07:15]:
The A third one is disrupting the storyteller. And the idea here is that, you know, is this maybe hard to take for some people, but the research shows nobody really believes you. Trust in companies, brands A advertising has declined fifteen years in a row according to the, Edelman A barometer. And so we need to have the courage to put the story in the hands of other people. A has this famous statistic. 92% of of American adults will believe something if they hear it from another person, even a stranger over advertising or over our marketing. So it’s Lee, how do we instead of just holding the mic and telling the story, how do we write a script and hold A and and give the mic to someone else to tell the story? Because that’s what we believed. That’s what we Lee.

Mark Schaefer [00:08:14]:
So it gets into this idea of the the the math and the strategy behind word-of-mouth marketing. Now let me just come back to a higher level principle. The subtitle of this book is A, how humans win in an AI marketing world. So all the themes of this book is that the themes are where do we thrive? Where do humans persist even with AI? So let’s take this word-of-mouth marketing example. We know Yeah. Word-of-mouth marketing is the most trusted, most unadulterated form of marketing, the best advertising you could ever have. And yet, Lee, how many companies have you worked with that have a line item in their budget for word-of-mouth marketing? None. It’s almost completely ignored, and yet that is something AI cannot touch.

Mark Schaefer [00:09:10]:
So it’s like revisiting some of these ideas and saying, Look, AI is gonna be nipping at the heels of our skill sets, nipping at the heels of our jobs. There’s an article in the New York Times today talking about how, you know, are we starting to see the end of knowledge workers? Because AI is starting to creep in. And this book is is like, here are the place, the places where we will persist, where we can still thrive and excel.

A. Lee Judge [00:09:40]:
Well, you mentioned okay. Let’s talk about that that space, that gap where humans can thrive over AI. When you you you ask me about people who I work with, for example, who don’t have a budget line item for word-of-mouth A. And there is the closest thing to that is a customer testimonial A even worse, someone in the company talking about their product, which I don’t think has any trust at all. But what is what can you say to companies maybe utilizing their people or just even user generated content to talk about their product as an actual user? There should be a line item that says, let’s get people to let’s capture people talking about our product naturally, organically, and then sharing that to the world.

Mark Schaefer [00:10:32]:
Well, a A big theme of the book and a and a powerful opportunity, I think, for humans to persist is this idea of shared experiences. We live in a world that’s moving away from shared experiences. Many people today experience their world entirely through earbuds by themselves, you know, in their living room. And so they’re they’re craving shared experiences, and this is an opportunity for companies.

A. Lee Judge [00:11:06]:
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Mark Schaefer [00:12:00]:
How can we bring people together in a meaningful way that creates something, so interesting, so worthy, so memorable that they can’t wait to talk about it with other people. They’re not just seeing an ad. They’re living in they’re experiencing your brat your your brand in in real life in some way. This is another huge opportunity to bring people together. And when you do that, I’ve got a whole chapter in the book about this. It creates this phenomenon called collective effervescence. It’s this emotional contagion that A, this excitement, this joy, this awe that happens when people come together. I mean, just a simple example.

Mark Schaefer [00:12:48]:
You know, you’re big into the into the music industry, and you probably enjoy listening to your favorite performers on your earbuds. That’s fine. But when you go to a club, right, and I know you do DJing, and people are jumping up and down and singing and dancing, that’s a whole new level. You’re experiencing the same song, but you’re creating awe. So now how do you apply that to businesses? How do you bring people together in ways where you add awe? What would your marketing look like if your plan was, let’s add more awe to our marketing so people can experience this collective effervescence.

A. Lee Judge [00:13:31]:
You know, I wanna unpack that a bit, the the collective experience, because I’ve got a teenage A, and he admitted to me that when he goes into a new school or makes new friends, it’s hard to find a group of people who have a common experience. Because Yeah. Music, for A.

Mark Schaefer [00:13:49]:
Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:13:49]:
He admitted to me, he said, dad, we all have our own individual playlists.

Mark Schaefer [00:13:53]:
Yeah. Right.

A. Lee Judge [00:13:54]:
Right? Used to, we would have one or two stations in our area. We all listen to the same one or two A. Right?

Mark Schaefer [00:14:01]:
Yeah. Right.

A. Lee Judge [00:14:01]:
When A when an album came out, there’s maybe one or two albums per Lee, and they all come out on Tuesday. We all knew who was coming out. We had a collective experience. Now they come out any day of the week on SoundCloud or any individual artist who just decides to upload a song that day. So my son’s catalog has everything from the new artist who recorded it on his phone five minutes ago to the Grammy award winning A who’s been around for decades. All that is in his library, but it’s unique to him and not his collective friends.

Mark Schaefer [00:14:32]:
Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:14:33]:
And he’s, he’s actually acknowledged that he wished he had more shared experiences with others. And so I think about that from a business realm in terms of marketing. I’ve had a client just yesterday ask about how to promote his podcast A he made a statement about this thing doesn’t exist, does it? And me and my colleague on the call was thinking to ourselves, of course it exists. There’s thousands of podcasts like that. But the reason why he didn’t know it existed is because it wasn’t in his individual sphere of, of exposure. Yeah. And that again made me realize we have these little bubbles that we don’t have this collective A. And to bring this back to AI, I think that’s probably driving even more of that because we’re cranking out more content and making it more and more personalized.

A. Lee Judge [00:15:22]:
So how do we use AI? Because marketers are going to use AI. We are going to use it to be more A, maybe more maybe more effective. The question is, how do we maintain that storytelling aspect and make sure the human’s in the loop?

Mark Schaefer [00:15:39]:
A, first, I just you know, I wanna build on the on the in the comment that you made there, Lee, because it’s it’s so rich. There’s so many rich things there. And, you know, I wanna emphasize this is a massive opportunity. You’re talking about your your share your your son’s experiences. Right? I mean, this is a massive opportunity for, for for for businesses. And, you know, AI, the other thing I wanted to mention on your comment is this idea that we have abdicated the selection of our content. We’ve we’ve outsourced it to AI. You know, Spotify A things for me, and Netflix A things for me.

Mark Schaefer [00:16:19]:
And not only are we in a bubble, we’re kept in the bubble

A. Lee Judge [00:16:23]:
Yes.

Mark Schaefer [00:16:24]:
By AI. Right. So so we’ve out so this is another interesting idea that serendipity is a luxury today. Serendipity is not part of our normal lives. You know, I I I I told a story in the book about when I was a kid A seeing a a book cover in the library that A changed my life because I read this book A it kinda opened my eyes to some things. We don’t have serendipity before. So I didn’t wanna miss that point that you’re exactly right. That’s also a business opportunity.

Mark Schaefer [00:17:03]:
You know, how do we get people out of the bubble? And I and that brings us to AI because I think we have a lot of opportunity to create something that is that is incredible that will get them out of their bubble. Now what does that mean? And and this is sort of where I’m landing these days that I think in the AI world, art will persist. I think we we we still love music and and books and artwork that’s associated with a person. There’s some story behind it. There’s this human connection. The things I cherish most of all is maybe, you know, a card my my daughter made me when she was seven or a piece of furniture handed down through generations. There’s a connection. There’s a story behind it.

Mark Schaefer [00:18:04]:
So what is art? Art is an expression of the human experience. AI will be able to to mimic that. It will. It’s gonna come pretty close. About a month ago, there was a a a painting, an oil painting, created by a humanoid robot informed by AI that sold for $1,600,000. Now, you know, is that a trend, or is it, you know, okay. It’s a gimmick. You know, it’s a it’s a milestone, so I’m gonna buy this painting.

Mark Schaefer [00:18:37]:
But what this suggests, I think, Lee, is A content has been commoditized, and our content will have to approach the level of art A like this podcast. Right? This is you and me. This is emotion. This is real. You know? Maybe it’s even a little bit of vulnerability. It it it it, you know, it it can’t be mimicked by AI. It’s almost like jazz. Right? I mean, you and I were creating this moment that that will, you know, never be reproduced, again.

Mark Schaefer [00:19:13]:
And I I think that’s a profound A. And and I think we should have a sense of urgency, all of our businesses, to get out of this vanilla valley, to get out of boring. And part of it means courage, having the courage to add our story, add our opinion, you know, to be vulnerable, you know, to to to, you know, take a stand, to add our own story to our narratives. That’s what art is. And I think anything else we produce is is just gonna be commodity. You know, we’ve got, I think, content in the future needs to approach the level of art.

A. Lee Judge [00:19:56]:
Well, let me challenge that a little bit. I’m curious. So you and I are talking. We’re having a conversation about marketing. We’re sharing our experiences. What if it only means has A value to people who know, and this is going back to something I learned from you about being known, A people who know A. If you know Lee, you know Mark Yeah. And what we say has more meaning because you know, you understand where it comes from.

A. Lee Judge [00:20:20]:
You understand our backgrounds. Beautiful. Have emotional connection.

Mark Schaefer [00:20:24]:
Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:20:24]:
But if it were an AI generated podcast A you didn’t know either one of us and you’re listening to it, maybe it would be good enough for you. Maybe you would know the difference. Yeah. Because I liken that to music. If you hear a song with great lyrics and the music is great and you know A about the artist, you could still fall in love with that song. Sure. Not knowing the artist.

Mark Schaefer [00:20:46]:
Absolutely. So let me split that two ways. Right? So I think you’re right. I mean, there is a place for commodity content, and there is a place for AI content. You know? Absolutely. The example I use in the book is, sort of an obscure rock star in The UK who I love. I’m actually coming to see him in concert in Atlanta in a few months. It’s a guy, Stephen Wilson.

Mark Schaefer [00:21:13]:
And, so Stephen wrote, recently in a post that he experienced, like, I guess it’s like you could call it fan art of music that replicated him. And he said, look. He said, I I couldn’t tell it wasn’t me. So Lee, what is my meaning? So this kind A, like, gets at both of your points here. So look, would I listen to Steven Wilson fan art? Yeah. Out of curiosity. Would I go to a concert to listen to AI fan art? No. I wanna go see Steven Wilson.

Mark Schaefer [00:21:56]:
I’m paying money for a ticket to go to Atlanta to see this dude. Right? And that gets back to the personal brand. So all these things they do go together. How do we survive and thrive in this AI world? You know, it’s it’s rising above the noise with content that breaks norms, that disrupts in some ways. It’s being known. It’s the personal brand. I think the third pillar, which is what my last book was A, our last A, community, belonging to the brand, right? This is something that’s also uniquely human that creates those shared experiences. Now I didn’t go down that rabbit hole in this book.

Mark Schaefer [00:22:39]:
This book I just talked about one of those pillars. But it does all go together. What what is a brand? A brand is creating an emotional connection between your customers and what you do. Do you A that does it help to be known that they like you, admire you, maybe even love you? Yes. Does it matter to be in a community where, you know, you get to know not only the people in the brand but, you know, new friends? Yes. It’s a deep emotional connection. And does it matter that you’re disrupting content that creates awareness to start that process in the first place? Yes. You really need to be doing all three.

A. Lee Judge [00:23:23]:
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Mark Schaefer [00:24:05]:
Disruptive marketing. Disruptive marketing. Yeah. Disruptive A.

A. Lee Judge [00:24:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. The community part. So I’m a part of your Rise A, and I think it’s probably the first community I’ve joined that I’ve had some real life experience A also an offline, A and type experience as well. And I appreciate what having that kind of community means, especially at a time when we’re more disconnected ever since 2020, ’20 ’20 ‘1 COVID era. Tell me, is there anything that even has surprised you since building this community?

Mark Schaefer [00:24:45]:
Oh, every day. Every day. So, you know, I created the community really, you know, really as an experiment. I had tried a couple times before, but as I was writing belonging to the brand, which is about community, I realized all the things I did wrong.

A. Lee Judge [00:25:05]:
Okay. Tell us about that.

Mark Schaefer [00:25:09]:
So, you know, I I think the the I mean, a brand community is is counterintuitive in a lot of ways. It means giving up power. It means giving up control. The community directs where we’re going next in the community. And and by the way, this is the most powerful aspect of of of where we are. Right? So think about scaling this for a brand. So in our community, our A community, with people from all over the world, you know, contributing something every day that said, hey. Have you seen this? Have you seen this? Now how do I keep up in this world? Here’s the truth.

Mark Schaefer [00:25:58]:
I can’t do it by myself. Nobody can. So we need a community, I think, to stay A. And so the community is taking us in the new direction. Now think about a brand. Think about some company where, you know, cookies are going away or at least they’re sort of fragile, You know, we’re people are not on social media. We don’t have the social media, you know, breadcrumbs like we used to in our listening platforms, especially younger people today. They’re going into discord A places like that.

Mark Schaefer [00:26:35]:
We can’t see them. We can’t hear them anymore. So in a but in a community, it’s direct first person feedback of what I’m trying, what I’m doing, what’s important to me. Now it’s like, wow. Why wouldn’t a brand want to hear those things, learn those things, and have your biggest fans collaborate on where you’re going next? So I I I think the biggest surprise for me is really how this community has become my university. This is this is this is the key to me being, you know, relevant. And I think any you know, I can’t say for every marketing profession or or every A, maybe things don’t change as fast as A, like accounting or finance or something like that. But for a marketing professional, you cannot do it on your own.

Mark Schaefer [00:27:29]:
It’s changing every day. You need a community to help you.

A. Lee Judge [00:27:33]:
You know, here’s something that I learned from being a part of the community is that as someone who doesn’t work in an office with regular coworkers, I miss that water cooler moment where someone says, hey. Did you hear about this new thing? Or did you read this article? Or, you know, let me stop by my desk and let me show you this new technology I found. I miss those things. But in a community, we’re sharing things like that, like new technologies, new experiences, new events. And so that’s been the biggest takeaway for me from the community is having that those water cooler moments with like minded or even more intelligent individuals than I am to to learn.

Mark Schaefer [00:28:14]:
Yeah. Think about you know, social media is like this endless stream of, you know, stuff. But in a community, you have someone posting a link who has read it and usually A it for you.

A. Lee Judge [00:28:29]:
Mhmm.

Mark Schaefer [00:28:29]:
And it’s sort of like cure it’s like a curated stream of the best stuff that’s out there. So, yeah, it’s a very it’s a very powerful way to, like, recapture those water cooler moments.

A. Lee Judge [00:28:43]:
Yeah. Well, as you wrap up, I wanna go back. You mentioned something about cookies and these these relics of tracking how we did marketing. And, I know you and I both have our beefs with, performance marketing, and I know I certainly do because I’d spent a career measuring marketing and trying to convince leadership of the value of the efforts we’ve made in marketing. So now that we’re talking about marketers being more audacious, it’s gonna come up. How do you measure audacious?

Mark Schaefer [00:29:15]:
Yeah. Well, first, I wanna A, I’m I’m not necessarily against performance marketing, but we’ve become obsessed with it to sort of a toxic level because it is easy to measure. And so it’s like if things are more difficult to measure, then, you know, we we maybe we ignore it, and it’s something that you can’t ignore because brand marketing is more difficult to measure, but that’s your future growth. That’s what distances distances you from your competition because you freaking mean A, and you don’t have to compete on SEO and coupons and shelf space every day because, you know, you mean A. And people will advocate for you, and maybe they’ll even pay more because it’s it’s you. So I mean, brand marketing is more difficult to measure A Lee idea of A. And I, you know, I encourage people in this book to take a step, you know, away from the norms of their industry. And I actually created a little formula, later in the book about how to measure that.

Mark Schaefer [00:30:28]:
Because and I spent a lot of time thinking about this. I’ll tell you I’ll I’ll give you a little A little secret. Or maybe it’s not a secret because maybe you and I are friends. Maybe I’ve told you this before. A a secret for your listeners. When the when I was finished with the book, I uploaded it to Chat GPT and also to Claude. And I said, what’s missing in the book? And the and both LLMs came back with the exact same thing.

A. Lee Judge [00:30:59]:
Mhmm.

Mark Schaefer [00:30:59]:
And it said, you need a chapter on measurement. Now in my original outline for the book, I had a chapter on measurement. And so, you know, here’s AI calling me out. You know, it’s A spooky, but I A AI was right, that I was being lazy. I I wasn’t doing the hard thinking, the hard original work I needed to do. I think if I’m challenging people to be disruptive, to step out a little bit, how do you know you’re doing it? How do you know it’s it’s different than your competitors? It’s not a perfect measurement system, but it’s a step in the right direction. And and I think it it it has to be sort of tweaked for every company in every industry, but Lee least it gives you something to, you know, to plant your flag on.

A. Lee Judge [00:31:53]:
So you’re saying that in the book, you give us some hints on how to measure A?

Mark Schaefer [00:31:57]:
Yeah. I look at, you know, for example, how big of a of a risk was this? You know, how I mean, culture is marketing. Culture is marketing. So if you have a very uptight A down culture, that’s what’s gonna show up. Right? If you have a loose culture that really is into serving the customer in every way and being open, then that’s A show up. Okay? So if you’re an uptight button down culture, what’s audacious for you is gonna be a tiny step in the right direction, and that’s okay. That might be a bigger risk than, you know, someone who’s A risks all the time. So it’s it’s relative for each company.

Mark Schaefer [00:32:42]:
So there’s five different things that you can take a look at to come up with this this compiled score.

A. Lee Judge [00:32:49]:
K. Well, you know, I wanna wrap up by encouraging the viewers and listeners to to check out Mark’s latest book, Audacity. And I’ll tell you, I know, Mark, you you have your favorites. You they’re all your babies, but I’m gonna tell you which ones are my favorites. It’s, you know, first it was known. That’s what introduced me to you and it has made a profound change in in how I move about. So known, A advantage, and now audacious is my favorite. So Awesome.

A. Lee Judge [00:33:13]:
Awesome. You know, you have many others. So if you check out Mark, please dive into all his books. And yes, I said dive in real life. Humans do say dive and delve A. But, yeah. Check Mark out. So, Mark, how else how would you like to end this? How else can we learn about you and get involved in, maybe your communities or your books?

Mark Schaefer [00:33:34]:
Well, how I’d like to end this is, first of all, to thank you because you’re always so well prepared, ask me great questions, and I love every question that says I love any question that says, I wanna challenge you on that. Lee need to do more of that in this world, and and end up being friends after a conversation

A. Lee Judge [00:33:52]:
like that.

Mark Schaefer [00:33:55]:
A, I also want to say, you know, we’ve covered a lot of ground, but I just wanna A that, you know, the subtitle of of a book I wrote called marketing rebellion is the most human company wins. And I believe that. You know? So, really, you got it. The theme of, you know, audacious is d is dig down deep and find that humanity that AI can’t touch. Right? And part of that is personal brand. Part of part of that is is the community. And then, look, I would love to hear from your listeners and viewers. It’s easy to find me.

Mark Schaefer [00:34:29]:
All you have to do is remember, businesses grow. You can find businesses grow. That’s my website. You can find my blog, my podcast, my books, and all my social connections.

A. Lee Judge [00:34:40]:
Awesome. Well, once again, Mark, again, I mentioned this is your third time, so you you might get a jacket for the third time or A of marketing. And also thanks to the listeners. If you’re listening to the podcast and want to see Marketing I video the podcast and others are available on the podcast section of content,monster.com. Catch you next time.

Announcer [00:35:04]:
Thank you for listening to the Business of Marketing podcast, a show brought to you by contentmonster.com, the producer of b two b digital marketing content. Show notes can be found on contentmonster.com as well as aleejudge.com.