Balancing Brand and Demand in B2B Marketing with Aaron Hassen

Aaron Hassen [00:00:00]:
Consumers, B2B executives included, distrust brands. They distrust institutions, advertising, the press, all of this stuff more so than ever before. What you’re gonna see is a move away from sellers, marketers, brands, and their communications as trustworthy. We’re having to overcome this obstacle of trust.

Announcer [00:00:25]:
Influential and thought provoking minds in marketing, sales, and business. The business of marketing podcast.

A. Lee Judge [00:00:35]:
Welcome again to the business of marketing. I’m A Lee Judge. Building brand and demand. Businesses and the marketing teams within them circle around these two terms because one is tied to recognition and top of mind, brand, and the other indicates whether what you’re offering is even wanted or not, demand. So while businesses would like to excel at both of those things, they often struggle to balance their focus between the two. Today, I’m talking with a fellow marketer and agency owner that is doing the work to help companies manage this balance. So welcome to the show, the cofounder of Ah Marketing, Aaron Hasson. Hey, Aaron.

Aaron Hassen [00:01:16]:
Hey. It’s so good to be with you. This is awesome. Thank you.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:19]:
Yeah, man. You’re old friend now. We we’ve actually met in person, hung out some, had had some agency marketing talk, and we’re good friends now.

Aaron Hassen [00:01:29]:
Yeah. I’m watching you, man. You’re taking off like a rocket, and I I just wanna I wanna do the same. So I appreciate you and you’ve been a sort of mentor to me. So thank you.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:38]:
Thanks. I appreciate that. We’re we’re still out there doing the work to help these companies. So I wanna thank you for joining today. And I have to also thank you for those who are listening. Aaron has an expert insight in a book that I have coming out very soon. In fact, by the time you hear this, it may already be out. The book is called C.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:55]:
A. S. H. It stands for communication alignment systems and honesty. And in the book, we have lots of experts including Aaron Hasson here in the book.

Aaron Hassen [00:02:06]:
What a privilege and an honor. Thank you for allowing me to be in there. And I hope, you know, people get, some real good insights from your book. I’m sure they will, but especially, you know, from, you know, some of the experts that you have in there, and thank you for including me.

A. Lee Judge [00:02:21]:
Well, you know, Aaron, there’s something you said in the book that it resonated so well with the part of the book that was there that I could it was easy picking your quote to put in the book. And it’s not just a quote. It’s it’s a part of our conversation we had a few months back while I was writing, soon after I finished. But we mentioned the customer journey, and you said something. You said that, you know, there’s only one journey. And, you know, sometimes it’s something I thought about in the book too, but we think there’s a sales journey or a marketing journey, but there’s only one journey. So if you wanna hear more Aaron’s thoughts on that, it is definitely in the book.

Aaron Hassen [00:02:57]:
Yeah. And that’s true. There is one journey, and I believe there should be one theme when it comes to sales and marketing. I I don’t think that’s two separate efforts. I think that’s one effort. So I think, you know, that’s I know we we align on that view and and some of what’s in your book is gonna help, you know, companies and brands kind of align their teams together, so they can make a bigger impact in the market.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:21]:
Absolutely. So thanks again for that. For those of you pick up the book, it’s called Cash. And, I look forward to, hearing your feedback on that and checking out Aaron’s part of the book. But today, we’re talking about a few different things. We’re talking about, one of the main things is brand and building demand. And, Aaron, I know that we’re in a couple of, marketing groups together, so we see some of the same conversations and we participate in conversations. And a current conversation in our circle is that brands need to be bolder.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:53]:
So what are your thoughts on if there’s a difference in the way business to business brands can approach bold as opposed to maybe more customer focused brands.

Aaron Hassen [00:04:03]:
Yeah. And, you know, it’s important to set the context on this. And I think the context, at least from my perspective, starts with the pandemic. So we’re all forced into our homes. We’re all forced, into orienting ourselves, and everything we did our entire lives around, you know, digital communication and devices. And so that really created a ship. So think about now, if you’re a a B2B company that you’re actually trying to attract people, many of them who are working from home. So these are now executives who are working from home, accessing those local devices, watching their TVs at home, on their mobile phones at home.

Aaron Hassen [00:04:48]:
So they’re acting a lot more like traditional consumers. Because if you think of that environment, you start to understand where people are going for their information. So it’s less and less those traditional b to b channels, and it’s more and more those b to c channels. So we’re listening to podcasts as we do as as most consumers do. So, you know, we’re like I said, we’re watching TV. We’re on YouTube. We’re you know and these are more and more the places we’re going to find our information and be influenced. And so we need to keep that in mind in b two b that, you know, while industry publications and associations and those newsletters and things like that may have been, more influential in the past.

Aaron Hassen [00:05:33]:
They’re less so today because of that that shift, to the at home worker, to the, the personal and professional lives mixing together. So when you get to this point about channels, that that would be the point that I would make that, we need to pay attention to things like social media. So executives are on their personal cell phones, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, and they’re spending more and more of their time in quote, unquote, b to c channels. So that’s the first thing to understand, I think. But the next thing to understand is, you know, the level of noise out there in the market because it’s only increasing. So that we know, you know, with with AI and and how easy it is now to produce content, and to publish content. So every every all of these channels, all of the traditional things like, you know, radio and TV have been democratized. You know? So no longer are we on AM FM radio.

Aaron Hassen [00:06:33]:
You know? We’re now on podcasts. And guess what? You could produce your own and, and get it out there, you know, by yourself. So it’s creating the ability to do more of that. And so in order for brands to stand out in this democratized environment, where there’s more content and more voices, they really do have to be bold. And you’re right about that because you they have to they have to you know, you only get so much so many at bat, so many so many turns to kinda get their get someone’s attention. And when you get that, the opportunity, it needs to make an impact to be memorable, so that they’ll spend the time and the attention, to inquire more. And so that’s what we know as as b two b companies, you know, we have to start to focus on the right channels. And then we when we communicate, we have to do so in a in a in a bold way, to get the get the attention, and to earn the attention, actually.

A. Lee Judge [00:07:34]:
You know, I think that even before the pandemic, the the sense of people consuming content being the consumers, whether you’re an executive or you’re buying something from a beauty brand, you were a consumer. You had the channels you watched and consumed content from even before then. It’s just that I think before the pandemic, we businesses assumed that business people only consume business sitting in their office as if those people weren’t humans unplugged from a cubicle or office as if we didn’t look at our phones for social media and talk to each other and have word-of-mouth and all the other social channels that we consume. We assume that, oh, businesses communicate with businesses through their email and in their office. And I think the only thing the pandemic did in that aspect is let us made it made us realize that, oh, wait. We’re no longer in the office, but yet we’re still contacting these people. How is that happening? Oh, they’re humans. And if we communicate with humans, then we’re communicating with our customers who are our consumers, whether they’re business to business consumers or their business to direct consumer.

A. Lee Judge [00:08:50]:
Right?

Aaron Hassen [00:08:50]:
Yeah. And I do think there’s been an influence, as we’ve come away from the business environments and into our personal environments. I do think we’re spending, we’ll spend more time on the informal channels like we would on our time off. So, you know, if you’re not inside the office, focus on business problems, sitting in meetings, reading those publications on your desk, or those newsletters come out, that’s a that’s a heightened focus in a business environment. And I think as we got into a work from home environment, and then and then more and more of us were shifting into digital channels and an increase in digital reliance, I think, you know, some of the traffic and some of the consumption, you know, went away from those professionals channels and towards those consumer channels, just as a nature of how we’re living our lives. You know, we’re taking our meetings, walking around, and listening to a podcast. So it there’s a convergence that happened, and I think it’s leaned us towards a b to c environment.

A. Lee Judge [00:09:54]:
The word you use was informal. I like that because when when you when you picture business communication, you think formal. And when you think social, you think informal. And I think that ties into our question about being bold because there was never a lack of boldness on informal communication. But there’s always a lack of boldness inside the business because we felt like we were inside the business. Like, you wouldn’t say or do certain things sitting in your office, but you might say those things sitting around with your friends. And if you look at it from a standpoint of marketing, perhaps if maybe that’s one way that businesses can see that it’s important to be a little bit more bold in the fact that your communication channels are a lot less formal. Some businesses are getting it, and they’re doing less formal marketing, which to the to many is bold to do anything that’s not overly branded or overly jargon filled with their product and their brand and their logos and things.

A. Lee Judge [00:10:56]:
Maybe it should be a little bit more informal to just have people involved telling their stories, being who they are experiencing life through or with that brand. That’s a lot more informal. And I think for many brands, that in itself is bold.

Aaron Hassen [00:11:12]:
Yeah. You’re right. And what I think it is, and I’ll I’ll kind of I agree with what you said, and the way it sits in my mind is the logical versus the emotional appeal. So for so long, b two b has stayed very logical, you know, in the office environments, you know, the creative teams developing things that made a lot of sense from a, logical purchase standpoint. You know? But our as people are at home, as executives are at home, as people, you know, begin this convergence of their lives, you know, having this work life balance, these work life balance goals and things like that, we’re having to reach people at an emotional level more so than we ever did before because that’s what they’re used to on the b to c side. Right? It’s it’s the emotional appeal, and, you know, that’s what attracts us to the b to c brands many times. It’s entertainment or it’s, like I said, you know, connecting with us at a on a deeper level, you know, it’s and we’re having to start to make music rather than, you know, public service announcements. So, you know, if we want more

A. Lee Judge [00:12:20]:
art than science.

Aaron Hassen [00:12:21]:
Yeah. We’ve gotta hit something inside and not just, you know, outside and providing information. And when people are in a business environment, they’re much more logical. So it made sense when people are in a personal environment, an informal environment at home, around their kids, you know, it’s very different to attract that person. And so that’s why b two b needs to needs to make that shift and be more bold from an emotional standpoint in attracting folks.

A. Lee Judge [00:12:52]:
Here here’s a fun one for you, Aaron. We both both run agencies. We both work with businesses. And when you talk about being bold or informal or less than logical with the business, you might lose that business as an agency. Right? They’re scared of that. They’re scared of that. In fact, we had a situation recently where we saw the best path for them for this particular company, but we knew that because of the size of the organization, because each individual had to be safe within their job all the way up to the CMO, the safe route was the best thing for them to do to not rock the boat. It’s a big organization.

A. Lee Judge [00:13:37]:
Being bold does not help their job stability. Yeah. Being bold means doing things that are less measurable, perhaps. And if it’s not measurable, it doesn’t look good for their job. Like, how can I report my work this quarter, this half, if I can’t report what I can measure? I can’t go out there and be bold and not be able to measure it. So when you’re talking to a corporation and, you know, there’s a a team of marketers or a hierarchy of marketers who have great jobs, they and they have great jobs they wanna keep. How do you get to them and introduce things that might be bold when they may not want to deal with the change?

Aaron Hassen [00:14:21]:
Yeah. Well, we talked about how attention is is hard today. Attention is difficult to get, because we’re all of us are so inundated, with information throughout our day, and any executive knows that. I mean, you know, we seem to be more under pressure. There’s more things to do as we’re more connected, as we’re more accessible digitally through our devices in in every other way. It’s just really hard to get our attention. And if you’re if you’re going to if a brand is gonna even have a shot, they’ve gotta do something remarkable as as Seth Godin has said in Purple Cow so many decades ago. Right? So he’s been telling us for a while, but this is true, and it’s especially true now.

Aaron Hassen [00:15:03]:
But there’s another layer to this that we need to understand. It is risky to not be bold. And the reason I say that is because today, more so than ever before, and particularly after the pandemic, consumers, b to b executives included, distrust brands. They distrust institutions, advertising, the press, all of this stuff more so than ever before. So if you if you’re watching Ipsos data, Edelman’s trust barometer, or anything like that, what you’re gonna see is a move away from sellers, marketers, brands, and their communications as trustworthy. Right? So we’re having to overcome this obstacle of trust. And in order to do that, you have to really connect with people in a way that, builds that affinity, you know, which, you know, if they like you, then they’re they’ll no tend to to be able to trust you. So you can you can take that relationship from an affinity to a trusting relationship.

Aaron Hassen [00:16:09]:
They want to know, do you get me, and are you in it for my good? Is this you know? So if you can answer some of those questions in the affirmative, especially with the with that that fur in that first moment or two, and they they feel like you get them, then they’ll listen longer. And if and they’ll continue to listen to see, do they get me? Yes. Do they have something that solves my problem? Right? Like, I am at risk. I have an issue, and I really want to solve this and I’m motivated to do so. Is this somebody that I can partner with and I can trust to partner? Because there’s a lot on the line for business executives, particularly today, when budgets and staffing is being cut or it’s more scrutinized. So they’re in an environment that’s just, you know, a heightened environment, and we have to have empathy for them. And when we’re going to communicate, not waste their time and make it, you know, remarkable and make it, you know, remarkable. Make it memorable.

A. Lee Judge [00:17:10]:
It’s funny. You mentioned remarkable that Seth Godin said, and and then our framework, Schafer says, what is it? Is it audacious?

Aaron Hassen [00:17:18]:
Audacity? Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:17:19]:
Yeah. So, like, these words definitely ring for for the current time. Like, if you’re not those things, then it’s hard to stand out.

Aaron Hassen [00:17:28]:
Mhmm. And being human is you I mean, you’re a big proponent of this. It’s it’s how to be more human, is is today what creates trust? It they’re we’re we all have a BS meter and, and we’re all more savvy. So, you know, people have been promoting themselves and selling themselves for decades now on social media. We’re all cognizant of what that looks like. You know, back in the early nineties with the, you know, some of the, infomercials and and things like that. I mean, you know, they could they could get us. Like, they you you’d watch an infomercial, and you’d buy the product and, you know, they they had a method and a pattern, but still, I mean, somehow

A. Lee Judge [00:18:15]:
We we couldn’t wait for the but wait. There’s more. You knew it was coming.

Aaron Hassen [00:18:19]:
Yeah. But today, you know, people are more sensitive to that because they they’ve seen that. So they understand that. And they may have even done that themselves. They’ve created a landing page. They’ve sold, you know, some subscription or product. You know, we have these, you know, these content creators out there, these influencers now that and and to some extent, we’re all sort of promoting ourself. So we’ve all been educated, and and we can see it coming a mile away.

Aaron Hassen [00:18:47]:
And so brands have to step up and do better and and be more human and more authentic and do something that really resonates.

A. Lee Judge [00:18:56]:
That’s a perfect segue because I wanna ask you about something. And because not only are we both marketers, we’re also both business owners. So I’m gonna post you one of our current business challenges at Content Monster. So one of our main products is always in well, at least it’s currently in demand generation phase because we help companies create those videos of their experts, of their leaders, the founders, executives, to show that real authentic conversation that we’re having right now. We’re gonna say things now that are not scripted, that did not sound like an infomercial because we’re genuinely giving information to our listeners. And so one of the things we create, we we produce for our clients is we help them capture their executives on video to make website and social media content, and we do it remotely wherever they are in the world. We can help them capture those people without having to do the studio thing. But that’s a demand generation.

A. Lee Judge [00:19:54]:
They don’t know that they can even do that. So once we create the demand, we let them know it’s possible. Oh, it’s it’s a easy sale. They all go for it because they know, wow. I didn’t know I could record 10 executives this month or this week even without all this ex expense they expect. So we’re between that demand generation, then we realize also we haven’t always put the Content Master brand out there. I mean, I’m wearing a shirt now, which is rare to actually have the brand out front.

Aaron Hassen [00:20:24]:
Right. Right.

A. Lee Judge [00:20:24]:
So when you’re talking to companies, what what’s your advice on balancing brand versus demand generation?

Aaron Hassen [00:20:33]:
There’s brand and there’s demand. And and, traditionally, those have kind of been separate. But, again, there’s there’s a level of convergence happening out there. Let me let me explain why that is. And so the first thing I want to say is go brand. And the reason I want to say go brand and brand is demand is because that’s what I want to truly say to you. But the reason I want to say that is because if you’re tracking the customer, what you’re noticing is that they’re purchasing more and more today based on influence. So we have a lot of dark social channels as they’re called.

Aaron Hassen [00:21:15]:
This, this environment of distrust has caused people to go dark to places that can’t necessarily be tracked. So they wanna speak to their colleagues on Slack. They wanna go into their communities, maybe on Discord, and this is where they they want to be influenced. These are the people they trust, maybe their coworkers or counterparts or friends and family. This is how decisions are being made today. And so to be able to influence people in the, in places that count in where they’re actually making their decisions, you have to you have to kind of become part of the trust, in the trust circle, in that circle, and that’s harder to get into. And we just spoke about being bold and meaningful in your communications to where, you know, your, your people understand that you get them and you’re out for them and you have a solution that could help them solve a real problem in their lives. That’s the beginning of dis, of trust.

Aaron Hassen [00:22:18]:
Sorry. And, and that’s the beginning of people talking about you. So that’s in essence, traditionally was in the branding bucket. So, you know, branding, you know, is awareness affinity, which then leads to trust. So we wanna create that awareness first and then that affinity, which, you know, I I like you. I’m I’m you know, I might suggest you to someone. So and and so that’s where I would recommend, especially today because of the way things are purchased through influence, and many times word-of-mouth, whether that be on digital channels or in real life, you know, just talking to people in conversation, I think the branding moments can be as meaningful and as important, as it as traditional, you know, demand generation was in the past. Like, typically in the past, and and I come from I was a founder that turned into a marketer.

Aaron Hassen [00:23:20]:
So I’ve spent the last eighteen years after my company was acquired helping other founders. And many of these are VC backed startups from Silicon Valley, Y Combinator type companies, and they have to grow quickly, two X, three X a year, there’s not a lot of runway. They’ve really gotta figure it out and figure it out fast. And so you wanna get to the effective marketing quickly because they just don’t have the money or the time to mess around with things that don’t work. And so I had to figure out and I and I continue for my clients to figure out what works. And what works today are influence channels. And so think about the community you’re trying to serve and who your best buyer is and how they are influenced. And typically, you’re going to find their friends, their family, their coworkers, the people in their online communities, all the things that I had mentioned.

Aaron Hassen [00:24:16]:
And the best way to get someone else to talk about you to them is to say something and do something impactful, either, you know, from a messaging standpoint or in the community or, you know, to do something they don’t expect that really resonates with them that they wanna talk about. Branding category, but it also ends up building demand because they begin to talk about you. So I would really focus on what I call digital word-of-mouth or, you know, the new word-of-mouth because I think, that’s the best place now to invest, are are those types of channels. So, you know, and and I’ll I’ll just at the end of this, I’ll tell you kind of for me, what I see with our customers, they’re investing in live events. Why? Because people are talking there, in their partners because partners talk about, you know you know, introduce you into accounts. You know, these dark social channels I mentioned, like getting inside of communities or building communities themselves, on social media, having conversations, anywhere you can interact with people that can then spread your message and tell your story are gonna be your best channels today because of this environment of distrust and because of the way, you know, b to b buyers are now purchasing solutions, in ways that the, you know, b to c buyers have in the past.

A. Lee Judge [00:25:48]:
Okay. Well, you know, I’m glad you mentioned, you know, having those conversations because, I I wanna wrap up with some of your conversations you’ve been having recently. I know you have a new season to your podcast. So tell us about that, maybe a few spoilers of who’s coming up on the show soon and so we can, look forward to that.

Aaron Hassen [00:26:08]:
Yeah. You know, thank you for mentioning it. You know, I’m just following in your footsteps. This this show is amazing. You’ve had some really notable experts on on your podcast, and, I’m trying to do the same. So I’ve, you know, I’ve also had people like, you know, Mark Schafer. I try to cover like, because of my background in in b to b startups, I try to cover both sales voices and marketing voices because I believe again that we are one team. So in a lot of ways, you know, marketing is visual selling.

Aaron Hassen [00:26:40]:
We sell with words and pictures. So I have people on there like Jake Dunlap. He’s he’s a sales expert. Or Anthony Anarino. He’s written many books on sales. But recently, I had Amanda Russell. She was a, a YouTube star, that became a professor at the, Kellogg school and, and wrote the curriculum on influence. So I talked to her about influence today and its impact and and how you can use influence as a company to really, you know, spur growth.

Aaron Hassen [00:27:17]:
And so she’s got a background in that. She wrote a curriculum on that. She’s had she sold two businesses by the time she was 32. She’s a really stellar person with a lot of business experience, and it all started for her when, she was she was on her way to the Olympics, and then she got an injury. And so she was an elite athlete that led her into the business world. And she’s got a very interesting story, and I love to tell those stories. You know, I talk to folks like that, but then I talk to behavioral scientists like Nancy Harhat, you know, and, we know Nancy and she’s great, but she gives us marketing hacks and things we can do to sort of, you know, increase conversion rates and get people to respond to our messages. Those are the type of people I like to have on because I’m trying to learn and improve my skills and what I bring to clients.

Aaron Hassen [00:28:10]:
But, yeah, you can find that on YouTube. It’s, it’s my YouTube expert interview series. You can look up my name on YouTube. It’s called, business with humans. And, and, yeah, it’s it’s great. We’re in season two. And so far, I’ve had, five guests this season. I’ve got another one coming.

Aaron Hassen [00:28:29]:
His name is Mark Stause. You may know him from, proof analytics. He’s he’s a guy who focuses on predictive analytics, seeing the future through analytics. So I’m gonna talk to him about AI and what’s coming and and how he’s predicting the future and helping companies, you know, with their, you know, forecast and and understand, you know, the kind of, decisions they they should be making, to prepare their strategies. And and, yeah, it’s fun. And I and I’m learning a lot, and I hope people will join me.

A. Lee Judge [00:29:04]:
That sounds good. I hope everybody will check it out. I I think I did actually just peeped that episode you mentioned earlier with the influencer. I saw part of that, so I wanna finish that out. So, yeah, everyone, please check out Aaron’s podcast. Just like myself, we we reach out to some of the best marketers and innovators in the industry, whether it be sales or marketing business. You can definitely find some good conversations there. So before we go, Aaron, it’s been excellent talking to you.

A. Lee Judge [00:29:29]:
So thanks again.

Aaron Hassen [00:29:31]:
Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate the time.

A. Lee Judge [00:29:34]:
Alright. Sure thing. So, also, thanks to the listeners. If you’re listening to the podcast and want to also see Aaron and I, video the podcast and others are available in the podcast section of contentmonster.com. Thanks for listening.

Announcer [00:29:50]:
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