Rethinking Attribution and Alignment in B2B with Mary Keough

Mary Keough [00:00:00]:
This is not sales job. Sales has enough to worry about. They have enough to do. They are talking to 16 different people in the buying committee across 10 to 15 different deals, not to mention they have to expand into their already existing A. Like, they’re doing enough. This is on you, marketing team. This is on you to say, Hey, put your foot in the door and say, This is our marketing strategy. This is what we’re doing.

Mary Keough [00:00:29]:
Here’s a gap that I’m seeing. How can I help? Influential and thought provoking minds in marketing, sales, and business, the business of marketing podcast.

A. Lee Judge [00:00:41]:
Welcome again to the Business of Marketing. I’m A. Lee Judge. I first connected with today’s guest on LinkedIn because her post reflected the kind of real b to b marketing you only learn by doing, especially in complex industries like manufacturing or software as a service. She’s now leading marketing at a growing software A, shaping strategy, owning distribution, and sharing insights that actually stick. So joining me today is Mary Kia. Hey, Mary.

Mary Keough [00:01:10]:
Hey, Lee. I’m so so excited to be here. Really pumped when you asked me. I’ve also been following you on LinkedIn, so I’m excited to talk to your audience.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:20]:
You know, it’s really great when you’re when you’re on LinkedIn, you start feeling this, feeling of community because you see a post and you go, wow. They they get it. They get my pain that I’m going through today. They understand the industry, and and that’s when those conversations really start. Right?

Mary Keough [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I was just talking about this with, another colleague the other day, and I really hope LinkedIn keeps it that way because, you know, it is going to more that, like, video first platform. So I really hope they do keep that sense of community because I really love that about LinkedIn is just you feel like you know A. And then, you know, coming Lee, communicating with you today, it’s like we already A on this basis of, like, you’re my colleague. Like, you get it. Like, let’s talk about let’s dig in.

A. Lee Judge [00:02:04]:
Yeah. Like, we’re both in the trenches. Maybe further down the A, but we’re all in the same trench, fighting the same battle here.

Mary Keough [00:02:10]:
Exactly. Let’s get

A. Lee Judge [00:02:11]:
right into it. So after me following your content on LinkedIn, I found so much content that I relate to, especially from some of the things around marketing operations and tracking and making marketing make sense to marketing overall, to management overall. And I know you’ve had some roles in several different kinds of companies, and I think it’s important for marketers to understand how their roles could vary across different industry types. So I’d love to hear from you. What are some of the key differences in strategy do you prioritize when marketing to engineers and A sectors versus where you’re at now to software decision makers, particularly like in content creation and and campaign execution?

Mary Keough [00:02:52]:
Yeah. That’s such a great question. So when I first started, my marketing career, I actually started as a technical writer and just kind of, like, found my way into the marketing department in this, you know, midsized manufacturing company. They just, like, had a need on the marketing side, so made my way from technical writing into marketing. And we were mainly talking to this is such an interesting topic because it really shows how large certain industries are and how many buying personas there are. So in manufacturing, we were mainly talking to facilities managers, so people who manage the actual manufacturing facility. So they’re in charge of buying things to keep the manufacturing facility going. A then as I moved into a role at a marketing agency, it was also industrial manufacturing focused.

Mary Keough [00:03:42]:
But that way, in some of those, for some of those companies, we were more talking to that technical buyer, so an actual mechanical engineer, a director of engineering, somebody who’s, like, more technical focused. And then in my role now so I’m at, like you said, I’m at a SaaS company, and we actually do sell to engineering people. So we sell to technical buyers. But like you said, it’s a software purchase, so we do have multiple people on that buying committee. So we’re also talking to IT managers. We’re talking to people on the c suite because especially with the geopolitical situation, you know, we have a lot of tariffs. Like, prices are increasing. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the market.

Mary Keough [00:04:24]:
So we’re actually finding we’re having to talk to people who are, like, two and three levels A, so in that c suite. So, like, even in some cases, the CEO directly has to approve the purchase of software because there’s just so much uncertainty in the market today. So kind A, like, looking back on my career, it is really interesting to see I’ve kind of stayed in that manufacturing industrial sector, but the number of people I’ve had to market to, write content for, build a marketing strategy around is a very varied persona.

A. Lee Judge [00:04:58]:
Wow. You know, you mentioned something that and I had no intention of having a conversation about AI, but you can’t Yeah. Avoid it nowadays. Yep. You mentioned you started as a technical writer, and I’m guessing that starting off as a technical writer, no matter how much AI you use today, having that base as a human technical writer, understanding your customer at that level has to make a huge impact on how you market today.

Mary Keough [00:05:24]:
Absolutely. That’s I’m really glad you brought that point up because when I started, there wasn’t a huge focus on, like, customer first marketing. Like, a lot of people because we were kind of in the digital age, it’s like, oh, we can just, like, talk in a general way. Or the manufacturing company I started at had been in business for, you know, seventy five to eighty years. So they’re like, oh, we already know our customer. We’ve been doing this for a long time. We don’t need to talk to people. So there was just this kind of, like, very we know our customer mindset that I had to overcome.

Mary Keough [00:05:54]:
So talking to customers in that really helped build this, like, foundation of knowledge. So to your point, like, really putting myself in the point of view of the customer of a facilities manager and operations A. And you do find these little nuggets of wisdom that you just can’t get from a Google search or from ChatGPT because it’s just the human perspective. So as I’m finding so I kind of carried that mindset into all of my roles in marketing. And I am a user of ChatGPT. Love ChatGPT. I have multiple custom GPTs that I use to help ideate or even write certain parts of my content for me. But that base, Lee, knowing your customer is such an invaluable part of it because A one, it feeds the GPT.

Mary Keough [00:06:43]:
Right? So me having that knowledge helps ChatGPT build

A. Lee Judge [00:06:48]:
Learn, build.

Mary Keough [00:06:48]:
Really great content. But then also, I can read what chat GPT writes and be like, that’s just not true. Or, like, I need I need to refine this.

A. Lee Judge [00:06:58]:
That’s the part. You have the experience to be that critical human in the loop to say, those words are great, but it there’s something missing there that I, as an experienced person, know is not quite correct. You have that ability.

Mary Keough [00:07:10]:
Yeah. That’s actually such a great point too. Like, some of the outputs, especially as, ChatChiPT and some of the other AI products are getting more advanced, the output is really good. Like, you read it A you’re like, Oh, that’s a really well constructed sentence. This is a really logical paragraph. But having that human in the loop to be like, As good as this sounds, it’s just it’s missing something. It’s either false or it’s missing that very human specific point of view.

A. Lee Judge [00:07:38]:
Yeah. And I think the where we’re at right now is it’s so good at writing that it takes that much more of an expert to find something that’s false. Yes. If you’ve got a hundred Judge, let’s just say if it’s just one page, you A to browse it real quick, if there is just one falsehood in there, skimming it won’t help you find that falsehood. It would take an expert to actually read it A know, wait a minute, I have A that says that’s not quite right. So I appreciate that you brought up the point of where you started from because I’m worried about new marketers who skip the first few years of being in the trenches to actually study and learn the craft and learn how to write for for their audience because they won’t be the experts in the next round of generation to understand where those mistakes are. Right?

Mary Keough [00:08:26]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I’ve seen a lot of opinions on LinkedIn that say something like, oh, the entry level marketer role is dead because ChatGPT is gonna do a lot of that. I really don’t think that’s true because I think there will always be a place for entry level marketers. You have to start somewhere. And more important than that is bringing that customer perspective. Like, there’s just gonna be work that okay. So I’m a director of marketing today.

Mary Keough [00:08:52]:
There’s certain work that I just can’t do anymore. So I can’t spend ten hours a week interviewing customers. Like, I listen to a lot of Gong calls. I probably have two customer interviews a month. But when I was first getting started, when I really wanted to build that base of foundational knowledge when I was a technical writer, I was doing, like, five customer interviews a week. I just don’t have the time to do that today. And that’s where I think an entry level marketer, this is what they can learn. So they can do that part of it and help feed the AI.

Mary Keough [00:09:23]:
So, like, I like you said, human in the loop is so critical, and there still will be roles for entry level marketers to, like, learn that craft and really dig into the specifics.

A. Lee Judge [00:09:34]:
Maybe when someone writes the term that entry level marketers are gonna go away, their viewing or their experience of entry level marketing is different. Like, their entry level marketer is a repetitive task, low level learning A of job, intern level almost job, and those may be wiped away, but I think the definition of what entry level marketing looks like changes.

Mary Keough [00:09:57]:
Like A.

A. Lee Judge [00:09:58]:
Perhaps before an entry level person didn’t do customer interviews because they didn’t know the customer well enough. But now that person can go another level up to what we may consider a mid tier marketer, may be what’s the new entry level, which means we all literally level up. Right? From from the entry level marketer to the CEO, we all can level up. So there is still entry level. It’s just a higher quality entry level. Maybe that’s

Mary Keough [00:10:23]:
what we A. Absolutely. And, like, I’m glad you brought up, like, the being like, I when I first started doing customer interviews, I was 24 years old, like, fresh out of college, like, zero knowledge of engineering or manufacturing. I had worked like, I thought I was gonna be, like, writing books or, you know, like, being an I thought I was gonna be an English professor. So, I mean, I came into those interviews just completely open and honest. Lee. Look. I have zero perspective here.

Mary Keough [00:10:52]:
Can you really help Help me understand you, help me understand your job. And I think being that open, honest, curious person, people are more honest with you. Like, I got just amazing stories that when I delivered the final report to my boss, like, on a monthly basis, he was just like, I don’t know how you got them to say these things. Because A Lee you said, like, being curious, being open, like, being okay with starting out from the bottom. I think that’s okay.

A. Lee Judge [00:11:23]:
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A. Lee Judge [00:12:16]:
We we mentioned earlier about tracking in the customer journey, how much is different. So let’s talk about that a bit. You know, I mentioned to you before we began recording that I did a talk a few years back called Click to Close, where I would show marketers how to track a customer journey from their first click to the close. It’s almost embarrassing now to think that I did that because even though it was true then, it is totally it’s almost impossible today to do unless maybe in e commerce as you mentioned. So A that that’s changed, we have terms like dark social and dark marketing A we know that our customer has their journey on their own. So as private channels like messaging apps and direct shares can obscure attribution, These A are still significant for the buyer’s A. So what practical steps can marketing, in your opinion, take to better understand how to manage their loss of disability to track the customer journey and still answer some of those questions that leadership’s gonna ask about attribution?

Mary Keough [00:13:16]:
Yeah. This is it’s so funny that you brought this up because I was the exact same way. Like, when I first started in marketing, so technical marketing, couple years, then moved into marketing, and I was obsessed with tracking everything. Like, every email open, every, like, click on our website, every, click A then retargeting. Like, retargeting was the big thing. Like, no one in our company had ever heard of it. I’m like, we gotta do retargeting. That was, like, you know, basically magic to them.

Mary Keough [00:13:41]:
Like, wait. You can do this? So I went from definitely being in that perspective too to now being Lee, I really don’t care what we track anymore as long as some as long as people come to our website and book a demo or, like, convert I’m

A. Lee Judge [00:13:55]:
glad you said it. Platform. I’m glad you said it out loud.

Mary Keough [00:13:58]:
Yep. I really don’t care. And I’m very lucky that, my CMO and our CEO also understands that landscape. Like, they’re around, like, our age. You know? Like, I feel like if you get into the maybe, like, next generation above us, they’re still kind of grappling with

A. Lee Judge [00:14:18]:
that belief

Mary Keough [00:14:18]:
that you can’t track everything online. But now our generation and even, like, the generations below us are like, yeah. We don’t you can’t track anything. And, honestly, we don’t want you to track us. So, like, it’s okay that you, like, there’s no tracking, and all I want you to do is A can run on a high intent form when you’re ready.

A. Lee Judge [00:14:38]:
Maybe I’ll be the A, and and and I hate that I might say the term vibe A or vibe conversions. I’d be afraid if anybody ever quote quotes and says Lee Judge invented vibe revenue because that’s almost a sin. But I get it, because even in our company, you know, I’m still letting go some of my A operation days of measuring every single thing. To now, I just measure the lagging indicators, like what happened. If there’s something major, there’s a major blip of, oh, that was great, let’s do more, or that didn’t work, let’s do Lee, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t dictate what we do going forward. Lee we try new things without proof. And that’s what I think most companies don’t quite get yet, especially with marketing. You have to try new things without proof.

A. Lee Judge [00:15:26]:
Otherwise, you’re always lagging and following someone else. There’s no innovation in marketing. And so what A have you found? What are some of the tactics you found to help marketers or help your your own campaigns push into that unknown and do things you don’t quite have certainty about yet, but you have a a vibe that it’s gonna be a positive action?

Mary Keough [00:15:47]:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing that you can do like, none of us are working for, you know, Nike and Apple and Google. None of us have billion dollar marketing budgets. We have very small likely very small budgets. Like, I came from manufacturing who basically, marketing was just Lee a cost content, and all you did was buy booths at the trade show. Like, that was basically your job. So I think, like, recognizing the reality is, like, we have a small budget A then placing big bets on channels. So that’s what we do.

Mary Keough [00:16:16]:
So at A and I’ve done in previous roles is say, these are the two channels that we’re gonna take a big bet on over the next just to prove it out, we’ll say the next, like, three to six months. And we’re gonna go as hard as we can. So LinkedIn is obviously a pretty major channel for anybody in b to b. It’s a very common channel that I’ve used, like, throughout the past, like, probably five ish years of marketing. And it’s never just paid ads. It’s, hey. We’re gonna do paid ads. We’re gonna have some key employees post regularly in, like, on their personal pages.

Mary Keough [00:16:49]:
We’re gonna post more often on the company page. Like, when I say pick a channel, I mean, like, we are gonna go all in on this channel. Another really great example is we actually started exploring PR in the last, like, twelve months. And so we have, like, a really great PR, freelancer who we work with who has some great connections. So anything that we write that’s really high value, so we write the content in house and then use her as our distribution channel. So, like, really making sure we’re, like, coming back and saying, you know, here’s this piece. We know it’s good. Like, we’re placing this big bet on this big content piece.

Mary Keough [00:17:27]:
Now you go and distribute it into all of these, like, newsletters, online publications, journals, etcetera. So I think that’s the biggest thing that marketers are afraid of is, like, let’s take a big bet. I don’t do Facebook. I don’t do Instagram. I don’t do TikTok. We don’t do Twitter. Like, we just don’t do it because we don’t have the capacity. So I think being honest about what’s your budget, what’s your resources, what can you realistically do, And what are the strengths on your marketing team? So I think once you do that and then place those big bets, that’s when you really start seeing people come in and fill out those high intent forms.

A. Lee Judge [00:18:06]:
Forms. On your forms well, this is a question about forms and attribution.

Mary Keough [00:18:12]:
Yep.

A. Lee Judge [00:18:12]:
We’re we’ve been putting a bigger effort into asking questions of our customers and as of our prospects A how did you find us. What are your thoughts today on asking the question, getting it on their forms, and getting your salespeople to ask a question? Are you doing that more?

Mary Keough [00:18:28]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So we ask on all of our high intent info forms. We say, how did you hear about us? If it’s, if they didn’t fill out that part of the form or they came in through maybe, like, a DM, we’ll ask, like we’ll say, hey. Where what other places have you heard about us? But this is bought in at the sales A, so I’m so glad you brought that up.

A. Lee Judge [00:18:47]:
Like Good.

Mary Keough [00:18:48]:
Sales, A, customer A, we’re all aligned on this same strategy. So they are encouraged and happy to ask people, hey. Where are you hearing about us? Like, just curious. Like, how did you first hear about CoLab? Like, what’s the journey been like since then? And building that I think it just really helps build that relationship anyways because then that helps our salespeople build that reference point. So they can say, oh, great. Like, what post did you interact with? Oh, that’s awesome. Like, I’m gonna send you, like, x y z article after this because you read that A, so I think you’re really gonna like this one. So I like, everyone’s bought in on that strategy.

A. Lee Judge [00:19:25]:
I love to hear that sales and marketing collaboration. I mean, that’s what I’ve been living and breathing for the past year or so since the book. Marketers and sales Lee, if you wanna close more deals and drive real revenue growth, you need cash A I don’t mean money. I’m talking about my new book, Cash, A four keys to better sales, smarter marketing, and a supercharged revenue machine. It gives you a proven framework to improve the four areas that impact A the most. Communication, A, systems, and honesty. You need a stronger sales and marketing engine and this book will show you how to build it. Get your copy now at aleadjudge.com/cash.

A. Lee Judge [00:20:08]:
Now back to the content. A fact that you said that sales is buying into it once they ask the questions, I’m guessing that that helps sales respect and understand the role of marketing. When they hear someone say, oh, I heard about you through this marketing effort, and sales goes, oh, I’m here as a salesperson because of something that started in marketing.

Mary Keough [00:20:30]:
Yes. Absolutely. That’s another thing. Like, I know a lot of other, again, on LinkedIn, like, people hating on the funnel, Lee, the traditional marketing A. We use it, and it’s it really helps with what you just said, Lee, that sales marketing alignment. So we use the funnel, I think it’s from I don’t remember who made it. Like, Demandbase or Content or somebody. But it starts out awareness is your top of funnel, then education, consideration, selection, and conversion.

Mary Keough [00:20:57]:
So we have just an understanding across our go to market teams that marketing handles awareness and education, and sales handles consideration and conversion. So that, like, really helps things because they’re like, oh, great. Like, people are coming inbound and talking to us. So marketing is doing their job. People are aware of us, and marketing is educating people enough that they are coming to us informed on some subject. And now this is our job. Our job is to now move into that consideration set, make sure we stay there, and then convert them A into a customer. So I think that alignment is also really critical.

A. Lee Judge [00:21:34]:
Well, going A other direction, how does marketing continue down that funnel? Like, when someone’s in the consideration stage, what is marketing’s role to help sales get them to a closed deal?

Mary Keough [00:21:45]:
Yeah. That’s a great question. So we use we use a strategic narrative framework from Andy Raskin, so, like, a sales process framework. I think it’s called, like, the greatest sales pitch ever or sales pitch deck ever from Andy Raskin. So we build A strategic narrative that everyone in the company has bought into. Here’s why CoLab exists. Here’s the problems we solve. Here’s why you need to solve them today, and here’s how we do it.

Mary Keough [00:22:09]:
So our job in the consideration and conversion set set is mostly sales enablement. So building really killer pitch decks, making sure sales is informed on any, like, new product updates or on the product road map. So product marketing mainly is responsible for that. So we still, like, participate in the sales process at those stages, but mostly from an enablement perspective.

A. Lee Judge [00:22:34]:
Okay. That’s important. You know, as we’re talking about sales and marketing, I wanna get your thoughts on this term that we’ve all grappled with, and I saw a recent post from you about A. Again, I was like, A feel her on that one. This is really even from the first sentence, I think you said something about, I don’t understand account based marketing. I’m like, she’s getting somewhere with this because my first thought was, yeah, me either. But then I knew you were going somewhere with it.

Mary Keough [00:22:58]:
A. We’ve all been asked to do an ABM campaign. Right? Like, every Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:23:03]:
We’ve all been asked. And I’m I remember it was A digital summit in Atlanta Years ago. I remember sitting in the audience with Sangram Badri when he would just talk about flip flip my funnel. Yep. And, you know, I was all about the funnel then. I was Salesforce administrator at the time. A I was like, what is flip my funnel? And it made sense, sort of, but then the term blew up and it spread so wide and thin that I don’t know if anybody really understands it. Is it, you know, some people say it’s it’s land and expand.

A. Lee Judge [00:23:31]:
You get into a company and you expand. Some add additional nuances to it. So what is your current take on it A, and, you know, how how would you say we could approach it, maybe understand it better?

Mary Keough [00:23:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think account based marketing, it has to be and, like, this is what I was kind of getting at. It has to be a go to market strategy. It cannot be a strategy that lives only in marketing. So it has to be something that’s bought in at the leadership level, at the marketing level, the sales level, and then the customer success level. Because if you don’t have that cross functional buy in, it’s just not gonna work. Like, I’ve done the ABM campaigns where they’re like, hey, marketing.

Mary Keough [00:24:11]:
Go do this ABM campaign to our top 10 prospects because we want to land and expand. Like, we’re already in, I don’t know, like, some big company like Tyson or something, and we wanna get into all of their business units. So go send a custom email campaign. Right? Go send some ads to only Tyson, and I’ve seen them all fail. Like, I’ve seen it fail before. Like, it just doesn’t work because no one else has bought in. Like, all sales knows is that marketing is doing this campaign. All customer service knows is marketing is doing this thing.

Mary Keough [00:24:47]:
They’re not bought in. So, like, marketing can’t go back and be like, hey. We’re seeing some really great signals from Tyson in Atlanta. You guys should really reach out. Like, let me help you with A reach out cam outreach campaign. Let me get you some contact information. Maybe connect with them on LinkedIn and send them this really great case A, like, something like that. That just was never A, And that’s the kind of cross functional alignment that I’ve seen work here.

Mary Keough [00:25:11]:
So we do I wouldn’t consider it necessarily ABM. I would call it, like, A, so account based go to market.

A. Lee Judge [00:25:20]:
Go to marketing, yeah. Yeah. So there’s a leadership place in there though because you said it was because I know you have this figured out, but you said marketing gives that feedback to sales. Like, hey. We see this thing in the market. Let’s go do that. The problem with that is if there isn’t leadership involved in giving A the respect to give information back to sales, many A, there’s a wall there. And this is where this term silo comes in because sales A some organizations don’t have any, responsibility to listen to marketing.

A. Lee Judge [00:25:57]:
Lee, we’ve got this now. It’s a hand off environment. When you hand it off to us, go away, plan your trade show. It isn’t a A, let us know what’s happening so we can be better at our jobs. So what are your thoughts on that leadership part? What do companies need to do to make sure leadership is that that pivotal role in between sales and marketing?

Mary Keough [00:26:17]:
Yeah. It has to be leadership led. So at the leadership level, we actually have select account lists that our leadership team created. So we have our top 500, top 100, and top 50 accounts, and salespeople are incentivized to get into those accounts. So they get, like, you know, certain commission checks or they’ll get, like, a bonus if they get into any of the top 5,100, or 500. So that’s at the leadership level. They say, these are the accounts that we want to hit as a sales organization. So when I send my sales team something like, hey.

Mary Keough [00:26:53]:
Honeywell is just filled out a form. They are Lee like, they are on it because they know they’re incentivized, and they know this is coming from the leadership

A. Lee Judge [00:27:04]:
team. Wonderful. So let’s let’s wrap on this. I might put you on the spot. But Yep. So sales and marketing alignment, one of the things that well the framework that I have in my book is C. A. S.

A. Lee Judge [00:27:15]:
H. Is communication, alignment, A, and honesty. And those are the four places that I see sales and marketing teams typically trip up and not make their revenue goals because of a breakdown in one of those four places. So given that, if you were to talk to a team that you found that was obviously broken in terms of their alignment, who would you talk to first, and what would you tell them to get them to start getting their team aligned?

Mary Keough [00:27:43]:
Yeah. If they’re so I’m A put a little caveat on it. Like, you know, it depends. But this is where I’ve come from. So I’ve come from b to b organizations that are sales led, so not product led, with high ACVs. So the average customer value is well into the, like, let’s say, 5 to 8 figures. So these are, like, big, big accounts. In that case, like, sales is running a lot of these.

Mary Keough [00:28:09]:
They’re running a lot of the motion. Right? So they’re they have a huge responsibility to close big deals. And the sales cycles are very long. So in that specific instance, I’m talking to marketing right away. And I’m like, look. This is not their job. This is not sales’ job. Sales has enough to worry about.

Mary Keough [00:28:27]:
They have enough to do. They are talking to 16 different people in the buying committee across 10 to 15 different deals, not to mention they have to expand into their already existing accounts. Like, they’re doing enough. This is on you, marketing team. This is on you to say, hey. Put your foot in the door and say, this is our marketing strategy. This is what we’re doing. Here’s a gap that I’m seeing.

Mary Keough [00:28:54]:
How can I help?

A. Lee Judge [00:28:57]:
Mic drop. Yeah. That’s perfect. That’s perfect. Well, Mary, I A thank you for joining me today on the podcast. And for those who are listening to us, you can also see Mary and I in the video section of contentmaster.com. So once again, thanks Mary, and we’ll catch you all next time.

Mary Keough [00:29:20]:
Thank you for listening to the Business of Marketing podcast, a show brought to you by contentmonster.com, the producer of b two b digital marketing content. Show notes can be found on contentmonster.com as well as A leejudge.com.