Using Behavioral Science in Marketing to Influence Customers with Nancy Harhut

A. Lee Judge [00:00:00]:
We may have just made a record for the most value given in the first ten minutes of a podcast ever.

Announcer [00:00:06]:
Influential and thought provoking minds in marketing, sales, and business, the business of marketing podcast.

A. Lee Judge [00:00:15]:
Welcome again to the A of Marketing. I’m A. Lee Judge. You know, marketing is part math, part art, and a large part science, particularly behavioral science. And as marketers, our goal is to move our prospective customers to take action towards our product or service. But how do you influence that behavior? Well, today we’re going to give you some answers to that question because our guest today is the author of a book called Using Behavioral Science in Marketing. So, welcome to the show, Nancy Harhut.

Nancy Harhut [00:00:44]:
Thank you so much, Lee. I am psyched to be here.

A. Lee Judge [00:00:48]:
Yes. I am psyched too. And psych is the Lee word here, I guess. Right? Because there’s some I call I see what you’re doing there. Because I I love marketing and I love A. And today, we’re gonna get a chance to kind of deep dive into both of those. Right?

Nancy Harhut [00:01:01]:
Sounds good. Yeah.

A. Lee Judge [00:01:01]:
So let’s start off, Nancy, before we get too deep into this, you know, we’re both A, our audience understands marketing, but can you give us a baseline to help our listeners understand exactly what behavioral science is and how we can apply it to marketing?

Nancy Harhut [00:01:15]:
Yeah. No. And that’s a great place to start because, you know, sometimes people hear science and A like, you know, test tubes and lab coats, and their eyes just roll back in their head. And they’re like, you know, that’s that’s not my thing. You know? I’m all about creativity and and influence. You know? And the truth of the matter is behavioral science, very simply, is the study of how people behave and more specifically, why they do what they do. And when you think about it, in marketing, we’re all about trying to get people to do something. Right? We want them to click or call or buy or try or or buy again or be an advocate or refer.

Nancy Harhut [00:01:47]:
And, so if we can understand why people do what they do, it helps us as marketers get out in front of them and, put the the kinds of tactics and techniques and and, nudges into our marketing messages that increase the likelihood that people will do what we’re asking. You know, there’s there’s no magic wand. We can’t make everyone do everything we want all the time, but we can increase the likelihood that we can reach them, that we can make them pay attention to our message, that they can easily understand it, and that they’ll be more likely to act on it by applying some of these behavioral science techniques. And so that’s Lee, at at its core, what using behavioral science A marketing is all about. It’s just knowing how the brain works and influencing people so that they’re more likely to do what we’re asking them to do.

A. Lee Judge [00:02:31]:
A as marketers, it’s it’s in everything we do A our emails to how we design our web pages and our landing pages and our pricing. So I’ve been listening to you for quite a while A I’m I’m this is the area that I’m really fascinated in because I have a minor in psychology myself. So I think about these things a lot A there’s so many different effects and A and techniques that they have names and frameworks around them that we can name and recognize and utilize. So I wanna do something fun, Nancy. I have a list of these effects A what I wanna do is I’m gonna give you, we’re gonna do a lightning round A I’m gonna give the name of the effect and a short definition of it and I want you to answer either yes, cool, or not quite. Yes being that it’s, you know, hits A light bulb, you wanna share more about it. Cool. Maybe you have some interesting, case study you wanna share with us or I might be off point.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:25]:
So if I’m if I missed the boat on that one and it’s not quite right, just say not quite A maybe we’ll come back and discuss it and get some more A. So the rule is gonna be yes, cool, or not quite. You ready?

Nancy Harhut [00:03:37]:
I feel oddly like I’m getting ready for a high school biology exam, but yes, I am ready. Okay. Let’s go for it.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:44]:
Or or a game show.

Nancy Harhut [00:03:45]:
Or a game show. I know. Yeah. Lee.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:47]:
Okay. So, I’m gonna read through these. I’m gonna look back and see what your answer is. I’m gonna go right to the next one. Okay?

Nancy Harhut [00:03:52]:
Okay.

A. Lee Judge [00:03:53]:
Alright. Here we go. The isolation effect. People remember things that stand out Lee colors, bold fonts, and unexpected words.

Nancy Harhut [00:04:01]:
Yes. You got it. That is true.

A. Lee Judge [00:04:04]:
The more exposure effect. Repeated exposure increases A familiarity and trust.

Nancy Harhut [00:04:10]:
Mere exposure effect, as opposed to more exposure, but A. Mere. But interestingly, it is the increased exposure that, that has the effect you just talked about. The the more people see things, the, the increase in familiarity and trust and credibility and believability. So it probably should be called the more exposure effect. But for for whatever reason, the behavioral scientists call it the mere exposure. I guess Lee exposing people to it can increase those feelings of of, familiarity and trust. So that happens.

A. Lee Judge [00:04:39]:
I misread it. I actually said over my screen is mere and I mispronounced it because I was thinking more. Alright. Next, the scarcity A. Limited availability makes people value something.

Nancy Harhut [00:04:50]:
Absolutely. We essentially want what we can’t have. It goes back to, you know, remember in high school, the the, the the heartthrob that we wanted to pay attention to us? If if they weren’t interested, we really, really wanted them. If they were interested, maybe we’re we weren’t as interested, you know? Like, we want what’s hard to get. That’s the whole thing about scarcity. If it’s harder to get, we value it more.

A. Lee Judge [00:05:12]:
Awesome. Next up, the decoy effect. People gravitate towards a middle price option when a higher price choice makes it seem like a better deal.

Nancy Harhut [00:05:20]:
Yes. That is true.

A. Lee Judge [00:05:22]:
Alright. The endowed progress effect. People are more likely to finish something when they feel they’ve already started.

Nancy Harhut [00:05:29]:
That is also true.

A. Lee Judge [00:05:31]:
Alright. The temporal landmarks effect. Fresh start effect. People make big decisions at key moments like New Year’s and birthdays.

Nancy Harhut [00:05:39]:
Yes. I mean, when you think about it, New Year’s, you know, nobody says, I’m gonna give up smoking on Wednesday. Nobody says, I’m gonna give up smoking on Monday. Right? So New Year’s Day is Lee a huge temporal landmark, but so is the beginning of the week. So is your birthday. So is the, anniversary that you got hired or the day that you get promoted. These are all times when people feel like they have a fresh start. It’s a blank slate.

Nancy Harhut [00:06:02]:
Right? Who they were is in the past, along with anything that they failed to accomplish. The you know, who they are now at this fresh start, the beginning of the year, the beginning of the week, the beginning of the, the the quarter, the beginning of the term if you’re a student, you know, your new birthday, your new anniversary. It just opens up possibilities and we feel more confident that we’re gonna achieve the things that we want to achieve. As a result, from a marketing perspective, people are more open to switching vendors, to trying new products, to taking on new tasks, making new commitments. And that’s why fresh starts are so, you know, temporal landmarks are so important to us as marketers when we need to look for these, you know, periods where things are starting. And and I said Mondays because Mondays are the start of a week. But for some people, for some brands, it could be the start of the weekend that’s, you know, the fresh start. It’s like, alright.

Nancy Harhut [00:06:52]:
Last weekend didn’t go so well for me. But this weekend, you know, I’m gonna I’m gonna do what I wanna do. I’m gonna get that exercise program in, or I’m gonna get to the theater, or I’m gonna try that new restaurant. So knowing what those kind of periods are that mark the A change, the transition from the old to the new is critical for us as marketers.

A. Lee Judge [00:07:12]:
Alright. Got two or three left. A gonna come back to that one too, especially for gym marketing. The framing effect. How information is presented changes perception.

Nancy Harhut [00:07:21]:
Absolutely. When we present information, we’re not just conveying the A. We’re also, determining how people are gonna react or respond to that information.

A. Lee Judge [00:07:30]:
K. How about the bandwagon effect? People follow what others are doing.

Nancy Harhut [00:07:34]:
Yes. Also known as, social proof. Right? Some people call it social proof. Some people call it bandwagon effect. But, yeah, we look around. We see what other people are doing, and we we follow them. We jump on the bandwagon.

A. Lee Judge [00:07:44]:
Alright. And this one I’ll probably A, the A effect. People remember unfinished tasks better than completed ones.

Nancy Harhut [00:07:53]:
Yes. And that’s, you know, when, when you’re watching, TV or or serials, you know, it’s Lee the A cliffhangers. It’s like, alright. That’s the last episode until it comes back in, you know, next season or next month or whatever. Lee have a tendency to remember those. Right? Because we wanna know how they end. And until we get that closure, that resolution, they stay in our brain. And, it’s one of the reasons why, abandoned cart messages work so well.

Nancy Harhut [00:08:17]:
It’s like, hey, you put it in your cart, but you didn’t follow through. You know, it’s like, oh, right. That’s true. You know? And it kinda kinda plants that seed and then it nags at you, nags at you until you finally resolve it one way or another and get that closure.

A. Lee Judge [00:08:30]:
K. And this last one now you and I are both recently released book authors, and so I think this one should should hit home for both of us. The authority A. People trust experts, credentials, and official endorsements.

Nancy Harhut [00:08:43]:
This is absolutely true. And that is why when people pick up cash, they’re gonna know that they can trust the author because you’re the one who wrote it. And they’re gonna say this is information I can use. This is information I can rely on because it’s coming from someone who’s an authority. So yes.

A. Lee Judge [00:08:58]:
That’s A wonderful and thanks for the plug on the book. So of those I content let’s go back and deep. You know, in fact, I just realized we may have just made a record for the most value given in the first ten minutes of a podcast ever. So let’s go back and go deeper on some of those. When we do pricing, I come from the SaaS world, software world, and Lee began doing pricing tables back in twenty fourteen, fifteen or so. We realized if we made one of them stand out more than the other, or if we had some kind of like, you know, bronze, silver, platinum, we’d make the silver stand out. And that’s kind of been stuck in my head ever since in terms of making pricing tables. And even on my own website for Content for our podcast production, We’ve never had a customer choose the lowest tier.

A. Lee Judge [00:09:48]:
It’s always, almost always the middle Lee. Whether we prompt them or moving them in that direction or not, some go higher and some in fact feel insulted if they can’t get the higher one. So, tell us about that effect. I mean, I know marketers are websites are key to what we do. And so, when we’re looking at positioning things on our websites, tell us about some of the things we can use, how we can use behavioral psychology or behavioral science to to frame our pricing, for example.

Nancy Harhut [00:10:15]:
Yes. I mean, that’s it’s a great topic, and we can definitely delve into it. You know, what you’re talking about is, something that Robert Cialdini, who’s, considered the godfather of influence, he wrote, A, the psychology of A, but he refers to it as the pull of the magnetic middle. And the way we are kind of hardwired as as humans is, you know, we we’re we’re we don’t like to feel like we’re lagging behind, you know, so we don’t want the the the leftmost option, if you will. But we also don’t feel terribly comfortable out on the bleeding edge. Right? If you think about, you know, going left to right, you know, I don’t know that that that doesn’t feel so great. We have a tendency to to cluster in the middle. That’s where we feel safe.

Nancy Harhut [00:10:52]:
It it feels like, alright, there’s a lot of people around here, you know, other people with me. There’s safety in numbers. I’m gonna stick with with the middle. So imagine you’re at a restaurant and, you know, the the server hands you the wine list and you look and you come out. I don’t recognize any of these wines. You know? I mean, I Lee wine and I have my favorites A but I I don’t recognize any of these. So what do you do? You start to look at the prices. Right? And you’re like, alright.

Nancy Harhut [00:11:13]:
If I buy the cheapest one, it’s probably gonna taste like swill. Right? It’s gonna be Lee vinegar. I’m not gonna like it. But if I buy the most expensive one, I’m gonna get taken. I’m gonna overpay. So I’ll take one of the middle range A. You know, like, we just feel that that’s a a safe choice. So when, you know, when there’s a, you know, bronze gold bronze, silver, gold, for example, we’re Lee, well, I’ll take the silver.

Nancy Harhut [00:11:34]:
Maybe the gold is, too rich for me. Maybe the bronze is is not gonna be good enough. I’ll, you know, I’ll take the the silver. But to your point, some people will say, you know what? The best one is gonna be the most expensive one. The best one is gonna be the gold one. I want that, you know. That’s my decision making shortcut. If that’s the most expensive one, if that’s the one that has the most features, it’s that’s A I’m gonna choose.

Nancy Harhut [00:11:57]:
Because people, you know, they cruise through life on autopilot. We’re constantly making decisions and we’re trying to make them quickly. We’re trying to make them expending as little mental energy as possible. And so, you know, over the, you know, the the generations, we’ve been kind of taught that the the most expensive one has all the bells and whistles, and I’m probably not gonna go wrong. So some people are just gonna say, I don’t have time to do the research. Give me that one. You know, that’s the one I want. And it also says something about me.

Nancy Harhut [00:12:23]:
It says that I have expensive taste or it says that I can afford the best one or it says that I’m successful enough to need the best one. You know, other people are gonna say, as I said earlier, I don’t know. I don’t have time to look at all three of these options. You know, maybe I’ll overpay here. Maybe I’ll not get enough Lee, so I’ll choose the middle option. You know? So it’s very interesting, but people are gonna be relying on these decision making shortcuts. And so in in marketing, you know, especially in, in digital marketing and in e commerce, you know, I always say to my clients, test. You know, test these things.

Nancy Harhut [00:12:52]:
So you, you know, you’re gonna have your three options. You know, you can test them low to high A you can test them high to low. Because sometimes what happens is that first one that people look at is their anchor. And, they’ll, you know, they’ll use that to evaluate every other option. So if you’ve got, you know, A hundred dollar option, a $50 option, and a $25 option, they might look at the hundred and go, oh, that’s a little expensive. But the 50 looks a lot better. But if you start with the 25, it’s a lot harder to get them up to the 50 because the 50 is twice as expensive as the as the 25, you know. So, so varying, you know, whether it’s most expensive to least expensive or least expensive to most expensive is also a good test, for, you know, for a marketer to try.

Nancy Harhut [00:13:38]:
But that idea of the magnetic middle is is very compelling. And there are other things that we can do in addition to putting the the, option that we want people to choose in the middle. We can sometimes make it a little bit larger. We can put a little, you know, popular choice banner or button on it. Not button is the wrong word, but a starburst or a, you know, a snipe or A, because these are also, cues that people rely on as they’re trying to make decisions. So, there’s it’s it’s very rich, this idea of testing pricing. A, of course, if we if we find a win, it’s very profitable for us. So it’s worth investing the time to to think about these.

Nancy Harhut [00:14:13]:
And, and as as your listeners consider how they might want to do some testing, you know, they should factor these things in. This idea of people gravitating toward the middle, this idea of maybe starting most expensive to least as opposed to least to most because they can see some incremental lifts. There was a study that came out of, Colorado. It was, it was listing beers in a a pub, and they, you know, they they either listed for some weeks, it was most expensive to Lee, and then other weeks, they flipped it. It was least expensive to most. And, when they finished the experiment, they found that listing most expensive to least actually got them a lift in revenue. So, you know, so it’s it’s, you know, there’s a dollar and cents reason for doing some of these tests. It’s just interesting to see the decision making shortcuts that people rely on.

Nancy Harhut [00:15:02]:
A, you know, you you look at the first one A you grab it. Right? I’m sorry.

A. Lee Judge [00:15:06]:
Again, I guess Lee attach ourselves to that value. Like, if I’m looking at a list from highest to lowest price, I’m thinking how far low do I want to go? How cheap am I? Right? As A, you know, you start off with a high price. So, well, this is too expensive, but how cheap am I going to get A opposed to how much can I afford to spend? Like, you know, you said A Lee the anchor price, like the anchor. If my anchor is cheap, it’s a dollar beer. Then when I get past five or six, I’m thinking, you know what? I’ve done a lot of increasing. I feel good about that. I don’t need to go to fifteen. I’ve done a lot of increasing from one to ten.

A. Lee Judge [00:15:42]:
Maybe I’m good there. Now, there’s another thing that it may be in the same realm and tell me if this is a A, whole different effect. But in terms of pricing, I noticed that, and this is most properly referred to when you see like, at a movie theater where you have your three prices of drinks, right? You may have one at $2 a small, and then a medium at $3 and a large one at $3.5 You go, wait a minute, it’s a whole dollar from small to medium, but only 50¢ from medium to large, so you end up buying a large anyway. Is that part of the same standout or is that another whole different effect?

Nancy Harhut [00:16:23]:
So you know what that is? That’s, what some behavioral scientists refer to as decoy pricing. And and the decoy price is the the price that’s there to get you to buy something else. And so in this case, it would be the $3 option because you can have a $2. You can pay a dollar more and get this $3, or you can pay 50¢ more and get the $3.50. You know, you can get the largest. So so you assume it’s small, medium, large, and you’re like, wow. For only 50¢ more, I can get the large. I’m gonna do that.

Nancy Harhut [00:16:50]:
So the $3 1 is kind of what they call the decoy. It’s it’s designed to get you to go up to that $3.50, whether it’s soft drinks, whether it’s, you know, popcorn at the movies. There are many, you know, many places that, that do this. I was, I was on vacation in Mexico A picked up the the drink menu at this restaurant and it was a very similar thing. They had a, you know, a a small for one price. They had a medium that was, you know, significantly more expensive than the A small. And then the large was just a little bit more. It was in pesos.

Nancy Harhut [00:17:21]:
So I don’t remember the exact A, but it was just a little bit more for, you know, for a larger drink. And you look at that A you’re like, wow, I’m gonna go with that. And I Lee, the number of waiters going by with these large goblets, you know, like A were ordering the biggest drink because it was only 50 pesos more, you know? Really interesting. So having that middle option be the decoy can get people to take the larger one. Other times, the middle option is where people are gonna go because they feel comfortable there. So it depends on, you know, it’s it’s a A science. In this particular case, as you said, $2, 3 dollars, 3 50, people look and it’s a no brainer. Why would I pay three when for 50¢ more, I can have this A?

A. Lee Judge [00:18:00]:
Now is there a dark side to this though in once marketers understand how to use behavioral psychology and we understand how we can persuade customers to change their behavior, is there a dark side? And I’ll give you an example of something that happened to me just a few nights ago. We’re at a popular, American chain steakhouse, and my wife ordered a drink. And she ordered A, I guess it was the the medium size of the of the two. Actually, it was like a regular size and a large. And I think the large was called Lee tall or something. And she ordered a regular one. It was a mixed drink. They came to the table, did the shaker, poured it, and the shaker had stuff left in it.

A. Lee Judge [00:18:41]:
And they took the shaker and it was, began walking away with it. And she’s like, Hey, well, can you leave the shaker here? They’re like, Oh, well this is for the tall boy. You know, Lee, we can’t leave this with you. And I’m like, but what are you gonna do with that? She’s like, you know A? I’ll just leave it here for you. I said, no, Lee? What are you gonna do with the rest of that? Oh, we’re just A pour it out. And I was like, okay, so you’re making the same drink and you’re selling it at two A, but somehow from a behavioral standpoint, you’re getting a bit more for those who pay more and you’re throwing away the rest. So to me that felt a little bit icky A once I realized how we’re being manipulated. So can you think of any instances where where where should marketers stop and not cross the line when they understand how they can affect someone’s behavior?

Nancy Harhut [00:19:33]:
Yeah. I I mean, that’s a great question and it’s one that, you know, I’ve been asked before A other behavioral scientists have been asked before because it’s an important one. You know, I like to talk about using behavioral science to motivate, as opposed to manipulate. And and, you know, and it it’s a tool. In and of itself, it’s it’s a it’s a tool. And in the hands of the user, you know, we can use it for for good or or for bad. You know, just like, you know, you can email A. You can spam them or you could carefully, you know, curate your list.

Nancy Harhut [00:20:02]:
The, you know, the idea of email in and of itself isn’t inherently good or evil. It’s, you know, it’s email. But how someone chooses to use it? Are they gonna spam or are they gonna, you know, send relevant messages to a, you know, a well selected audience? It’s it’s similar with these behavioral science principles. You know, honestly, just because we can A necessarily mean we should. So I always say to my clients, you know, we wanna use these tools in an ethical way. We wanna use them responsibly. We wanna use them so that we’re getting to a win win. You know, here here’s A situation.

Nancy Harhut [00:20:35]:
You know, people are cruising through life on autopilot. They don’t take the time or have the time to think through every decision. And what we wanna do is we wanna make it easy for them to come to a good decision. So so that’s kind of predicated on the fact that we’re selling a product that is good, that we’ve targeted people that really can benefit from it. And, and as much as we’re prompting, nudging them in a direction, we’re still giving them free will. So they don’t, you know, here’s your three choices. We’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna maybe put the choice we want you to take in the A. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t take the one to the left or the one to the right.

Nancy Harhut [00:21:12]:
You know, you’re you still have that free will. But what we wanna do is we wanna be honest and responsible and ethical as marketers. We don’t wanna be manipulating people because A, you know, Lee, in the short run, sure, we’ll, you know, we’ll get some sales. But in the long run, that erodes brand trust that that, you know, it it angers A. And that’s the kind of thing that you can, you know, maybe never undo. You know, once people feel that they’ve been taken advantage of, that they’ve been misled, that they’ve been misled to, they’re Lee, they’re done with you. They’re just not gonna but on the other hand, if you’ve done something to help them, help them come to a good decision more quickly, help them not overlook something that they would really benefit from, well, then that’s a that’s a service that benefits both them and you as the as the brand. So it’s just really a matter of being, you know, ethical and responsible.

Nancy Harhut [00:22:05]:
If you wouldn’t, you know, if you wouldn’t say this to your friend or to your family, don’t say it to your customers and prospects. It’s it’s as simple as that.

A. Lee Judge [00:22:14]:
Well, let me ask you this. Everything we do in marketing is always evolving. So are there things are there times or maybe you have examples of where things that we used to do from a behavioral science standpoint in marketing used to work, but don’t work so much anymore because maybe technology or our habits have changed?

Nancy Harhut [00:22:33]:
Yeah. You know, I think what happens is, like many things in marketing, you know, things kind of, ebb and flow. You know, they they start they they start to work really well. They get really hot. Then, you know, they start to fall off a little bit. People are like, oh, yeah. I’m familiar with that. You know, the idea of scarcity.

Nancy Harhut [00:22:49]:
Right? We’re talking about, like, you know, we value things that are harder to get. If something is scarce, we’re much more likely to to go after it. It’s like, you know, if something is available, it’s widely available, you know, we want it, we get it. If we’re not interested, we don’t bother. But when you say to people, oh, there’s only a limited quantity or this is only gonna be around for a certain amount of time or this is only available to a certain group of people but not to everyone, you know, that can change things. You know, it makes a switch flip on us and suddenly we’re like, oh, A, you know, I think I want this then. Like, if if it’s not always gonna be around, I better get it now. That’s that’s the whole idea of scarcity.

Nancy Harhut [00:23:19]:
So, you know, so what happens is, particularly in travel, for example, a lot of the airlines and hotels started to use it. Only three left Lee at this price, you know. Only five left at this price. And, you know, so what was happening is A people were like, oh my gosh. I I gotta jump on this. But then A they began to find out was some of these travel industry, you know, travel industry players, not all of them, but some of them were, you know, kinda gaming the system. You know, there’s only three left at this price, but there’s 300 more at a dollar less or A, you know. And when people began to realize that, it’s like, wait a A.

Nancy Harhut [00:23:54]:
You know, there are only supposed to be three Lee, but, you know, that’s A what it said yesterday. And I come back, you know, today and there’s still only three left. You know? And they they start to get wise to it. And then they get a little, skeptical. And so then because there are a couple of, you know, bad actors that that misuse that technique, suddenly people are Lee, you know, the the skepticism and the mistrust arises and then it it stops working for a lot of people, a lot of marketers when, you know, really it could. And then Lee that falls off a little bit and suddenly scarcity, for example, starts to work well again. So there are things that I think just ebb and flow. You know, I I grew up, in direct mail years and years ago, and we would sometimes find that, you know, snap packs were really hot.

Nancy Harhut [00:24:38]:
You know, the the kind of mail piece where you you perf off the sides and open it up A, you know, A was using them. And then people were like, and then, you know, you stop using them. And then, I don’t know, two years later, suddenly they, you know, come back into vogue again because people haven’t seen them in a while. You know, similar things with, you know, with emails. You know, emojis have a tendency to work well. The more and more people that use emojis in their subject line, the more common, you know, the audience, is gonna find them and the less likely they’ll be to attract attention. You know, if you scan your inbox and there’s a single email subject line with an emoji in it, your eye will go right to it. You know, we talked about the isolation effect, things that are different from the surroundings stand out.

Nancy Harhut [00:25:18]:
If you’re scanning your inbox and, you know, all 15 of the emails that you’re looking at have emojis, they cancel each other out. Right? None of them are gonna stand out.

A. Lee Judge [00:25:26]:
That happened this morning. I was looking at someone’s post on LinkedIn, and she was saying that she absolutely would avoid connecting with anybody who claimed I help. Like I help you 10 X your business, whatever. I help you do this. And the funny thing was, and I agree I’m the same way now. I will avoid anybody like the plague if they say I help so and so, especially with numbers after it. 10 X this or A hundred percent that. The funny thing is fifteen, maybe ten years ago, I was teaching social selling A link for LinkedIn to at a sales kickoff.

A. Lee Judge [00:26:00]:
And I remember saying your headline should not say your job A. Your job your your headline should say, what can you do for your customer? And that was the beginning of I help because the whole sales team began putting in there, you know, I help A succeed this. I help that. I help that. But as you said before, at that time, it was different. It stood out. It gave you a clear explanation of what that person could do for you. But then once it becomes best practice, best best practice is almost like one mile behind spam.

A. Lee Judge [00:26:36]:
Lee A it becomes best practice, that means it’s heading for a wall and A few months later, it’s spam. And that’s what’s happened with this scenario. It reminds me what you said about the emojis, like, it’s best practice for a minute, but now it’s spam.

Nancy Harhut [00:26:50]:
Yeah. No. It is interesting. I think, you know, like anything, when people see things a lot over and over and over again, they don’t, you know, they don’t stand out. You know, we’re talking about the isolation effect A, you know, we we gravitate towards things that are different, that stand out, that surprise us. You know, we notice things that, we aren’t accustomed to seeing. When things get, you know, cliched or when, you know, when we just get so when they’re so commonplace, when we’re so used to seeing them, you know, we have a tendency to filter them out. There’s there’s no, you know, no question about that.

Nancy Harhut [00:27:22]:
I mean, you know, I would say that there are probably some best practices that that marketers should always use, you know, put the you know, be Lee more you focused, more customer focused, and Lee, company focused, you know. I mean, I don’t know if that will ever become, you know, something that’s a A best practice we no longer wanna use. So I think there are probably some that, that are gonna stand the test of time. But others, as you say, they just they get cliched, you A? And then they’re one step away from, like, well, just, you know, avoid it at all content, you know, but that’s why marketers always need to be testing. And I think the thing about understanding behavioral science is it gives you a smart platform to test from. Right? So if you understand how people make decisions, if you understand the decision making shortcuts that they often rely on, you can get out ahead of it and say, alright, you know, I’m gonna try testing the authority principle against social proof. Right? I have good reason to think one or both of those is going to work because we know that, you know, people have a tendency to listen to authorities and, and, you know, accept what they say and and do what they ask. So, alright, I’m gonna test that.

Nancy Harhut [00:28:27]:
And then we know with social proof when people aren’t certain of what to do, they have a tendency to follow the crowd. So two good reasons. Right? So you’re you’re testing from two smart A and then, you know, you put it out there and you see, well, which is gonna work better? Which is gonna work better for this particular audience segment or for this particular product or at this particular time? And, you know, sometimes what worked for someone isn’t gonna work for you. Sometimes what, you know, worked in the past won’t work in the future. Sometimes what failed in the past will work now, you know, because things come in and out. But at least understanding behavioral science gives you, a leg up in terms of where to even start your testing. But as marketers, we always should be testing.

A. Lee Judge [00:29:07]:
Well, Nancy, before we go, I want to give you a moment to tell us more about your book because your your background is extensive on behavioral science and A, and I don’t know if it was coincidental, but I know you have a ton of experience in it and then you are an authority on it. Now, I behoove any marketer to follow you and learn about what you’re talking about and get your book, but tell us about the book.

Nancy Harhut [00:29:30]:
Well, thanks. So it’s called, Using A Science and Marketing, Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses. And in prompting in this case is not about AI prompting, but it’s just prompting, triggering, nudging, you know, tapping into, people’s instinctive responses. Because, you know, science has proven that, we often cruise along on autopilot A there are certain things that will push us in one direction or another. And, as marketers, if we understand what those things are, it helps us, increase the likelihood that people will do what we wanna do. So the book is 288 pages, 17 chapters and over 25 different proven, actionable, tactical, and easy to test techniques that you can use to, increase the likelihood that people will engage with and respond to your marketing messages. Some readers have said that it’s a master class in understanding, what people do, why they do it, and how to get them to do more of what you want them to do. So, I encourage any of your listeners to, to check it out.

Nancy Harhut [00:30:28]:
It’s an easy read. Even though A isn’t the title, it’s an easy read. Lots of, you know, takeaways, bulleted takeaways, mini case studies, and, examples of how to easily apply these tactics in order to, to increase ROI.

A. Lee Judge [00:30:42]:
And, you know, and as marketing and sales is so much closer, I would ask any salesperson, this would be a great tool for A salesperson as well.

Nancy Harhut [00:30:51]:
It absolutely is. There’s a, A reader named Carl Adamson. He’s in, The UK, and he was one of the first people to point that out to me. He was like, Nancy, it’s called behavioral science and marketing, but, you know, it could be behavioral science in sales. You know, he said, any business can use this. He has a agile coaching business and he says, I, you know, I use it all the time. I share these techniques with, with my clients who are growing their businesses. But you’re absolutely right.

Nancy Harhut [00:31:15]:
You know, sales and marketing are getting closer and closer, need to be closer and closer. And, these are great techniques whether you’re selling in person, whether you’re selling online, whether you’re selling, you know, in store. But it’s it’s really just understanding how people make decisions and, you know, what can help you help them make good decisions.

A. Lee Judge [00:31:35]:
Absolutely. Alright. Well, to wrap up, I want to tell our audience that Nancy is a great person to follow and learn from. You also need to hire her or catch her speaking at an upcoming event. And, so, Nancy, give us the best way to contact you and and reach out to you.

Nancy Harhut [00:31:50]:
Sure. Sure. So I’m, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Twitter slash x, and then, my agency that I cofounded is called HBT A, h b t m k t g dot com. We’ve abbreviated marketing in our URL, but, and we post a lot of interviews and articles and and just, you know, great content about behavioral science there. And you can also find me there too. So I’d I’d love to hear either on social media or via email from any of your listeners that have any questions or that wanna just continue the conversation.

A. Lee Judge [00:32:21]:
Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you, and thanks to the listeners. If you A to the podcast and also want to see Nancy and I, the video of this podcast and others can be found, in the podcast section of content. Again, Nancy, thank you, and thanks for listening.

Nancy Harhut [00:32:38]:
Thank you. My pleasure, Lee.

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